Warhammer TT

[Dorkus_Malorkus]

You often hear "that's not competitive on TT" in these forums, so I found a list of a few armies at the 2014-15 US Masters. It looks like the builds have actually been taken from the tournaments. With only a few units missing from a 'competitive' army. I could not find any Empire players in that spreadsheet. Interesting to see what kinds of builds they use at toournaments. It looks like CA have got their unit choices straight from the tournament rosters. Very few units look like they are missing from these tournaments.

Of course, there are a few units missing that are in all of the builds - a 'Rock Lobba' (orcs) and chimera (chaos). I hope they do not DLC us to death to get these odd units.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1323467691


Dwarf

Dwarf Lord
Thane
Runesmith
Runesmith

Longbeards
Dwarf Warriors
Dwarf Warriors

Gyrocopter
Gyrocopter
Gyrocopter
Ironbreakers

Rangers
Iron Drakes




Orcs & Goblin

Black Orc Warboss
Savage Orc Great Shaman
Heroes
Savage Orc Big Boss
Savage Orc Big Boss
Savage Orc Shaman
Goblin Big Boss
Goblin Big Boss

Core
37 Savage Orc Boyz
20 night goblins
5 goblin wolf riders
5 goblin wolf riders

Special
8 Trolls
8 Trolls

Rare
Rock Lobba
Doom Diver
Doom Diver



Chaos

Sorceror Lord

Exalted Hero

5 Chaos Warhounds
5 Chaos Warhounds
6 Chaos Warhounds
24 Chaos Warriors
5 Marauder Horsemen

Chimera
Chimera
Chimera

Chaos Giant
Chaos Giant

Vampire Counts

Vampire Lord

Vampire
Vampire
Cairn Wraith

45 Zombies
45 Zombies
42 Skeleton Warriors
5 Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves

8 Vargheists

[Bobington]

That's one Dwarf list and one extremely situational OaG list. It doesn't even have Organ guns, the slayers of well, everything!

[Dorkus_Malorkus]

Slayers don't look like they are on very many of the Dwarf lists in that spreadsheet. It could be that Slayers are too specific, and there is plenty of other units in the Dwarf roster that can take out the Monster units.

The other issue is the fact that the numbers they are using in the spreadsheet are a lot fewer than the Total War. You are talking about 50 individuals. In total war, you would be looking at about double that in one unit. It will be interesting to see if you can go without Slayers in Total War. The gyrocopters are very popular, with at least 3 or four in each of the Dwarf armies.

The exclusion of Empire from these lists is quite interesting. Brettonia is there, but for them it is all cavalry with basically a mass of peasants as the anvil.

[Bobington]

I wasm't referring to slayers, I was talking about organ guns

[August]

Note that each list has a "Comp Score". In other words, if you take an army with the strongest units possible you will score very low on Comp, and severely limit your chances to be the top player in the end.

The actual top players usually are the ones who take a pretty mild looking list, but well thought out, with strong synergies, and play well with it.

But it depends on the rules/scoring system for each event - some just let players go all out. Those tourneys I find a bit dull, since they favor few armies and therefore look very homogenous on top.

I guess what I am saying is that content of the list itself is but one dimension of the overall picture.
Some of what I see in these lists look a bit powerplay-esque to my eyes (if you take three of something that is not a core unit - the alarm bells begin to ring automatically).

[Dorkus_Malorkus]

I wondered what that comp means. It stills suggests that the units that made the Total War rosters pretty much cover the main units in tournaments. I take your point though. The one thing I noticed is that the goblins are considered very good in the TT because they get a lot of attacks. I don't think the same thing will happen in Total War.

In Total War it looks like the Goblins were just smaller and cheaper versions of the Orcs, but can be equipped with spears for some anti-cav. Maybe the goblins will be like the militia/peasants from the old Total War games.

The point about the Slayers is still an interesting one, even if the Organ Gun is missing. None of the Dwarfs have a Slayer Unit. August, is that normal?

[Fallen851]

The real question is whether it will matter. In the TW games I've played, certain units are terrible while others are overpowered, and thus there isn't a whole lot of deviation. Take Rome 2 for example, you just rush up to Legionaries from the start and use them for the rest of the game basically.

Hopefully CA will balance the game so it matters what units you have.

[August]

I wondered what that comp means. It stills suggests that the units that made the Total War rosters pretty much cover the main units in tournaments. I take your point though. The one thing I noticed is that the goblins are considered very good in the TT because they get a lot of attacks. I don't think the same thing will happen in Total War.

In Total War it looks like the Goblins were just smaller and cheaper versions of the Orcs, but can be equipped with spears for some anti-cav. Maybe the goblins will be like the militia/peasants from the old Total War games.

The point about the Slayers is still an interesting one, even if the Organ Gun is missing. None of the Dwarfs have a Slayer Unit. August, is that normal?

Goblins are good on TT? Unless something had changed recently(I pulled away sharply from TT after GW decided to annihilate the world and start over), that was generally not the case. Pure Gobbo lists always suffered from things like terrible Leadership values and lack of tough, hard hitting infantry blocks. Also, they are soooo cheap, have soooo many models, that it becomes a huuuuuge pain in the rear to transport, deploy, and move the massive pile of models that is a Gobbo horde.

On the other hand, they had many of the wacky rules and were just fun to play with/against.

The strongest Greenskin lists were usually a mixture of Orks/Gobbos, often, with a lot of artillery(it was good and cheap). Big thing that always held Greenskins back was the wackiness of their rules. There is a lot of randomness that can happen at any time. That's a big part of why they are a fun race to play, but this makes it hard to perform consistently well in a competitive tournament environment.

Slayers are a rare sight mostly because they are an unarmored, niche monster-killer unit. They are slow as all dwarfs are, so it is not that hard for your opponent to make sure their monster(s) will never get caught by them. But really, Dwarf artillery, with runes, is the best artillery in the game. And this superb artillery takes care of any monsters much more effectively. If you have Dwarf guns, there's nothing for Slayers to do, so Slayers solve problems that Dwarfs don't have to begin with. That's the main reason.

They are, however, a cool unit lore-wise. If you see Slayers in the army, it is a good indicator that the person playing it is playing for fun and/or loves the lore.

[Dorkus_Malorkus]

The real question is whether it will matter. In the TW games I've played, certain units are terrible while others are overpowered, and thus there isn't a whole lot of deviation. Take Rome 2 for example, you just rush up to Legionaries from the start and use them for the rest of the game basically.

Hopefully CA will balance the game so it matters what units you have.

To be honest, it looks like the Warhammer TT is similar. That you have a kind of 'core' that does not vary too much and you basically make choices around the edges. The main issue in Total War is that there is not a points limit, so people are not forced to pick between one good unit of melee warriors and a good piece of artillery. That element is still there but it is very different. The point I was making was that the rosters in Total War do not look too different from the competitive rosters used in tournaments.

From what August is saying, the Greenskins will be the most interesting in Total War. They were a 'wacky' race on the TT and randomness played a big role. I am not sure how easy it is to import that into Total War or doing so makes sense.