Should Lords be able to dismount in battle?

[Humble Warrior]

If he can mount, he should be able to dismount.

Common sense and logic.

[Lydrayn]

They can actually, you have to wait 1 turn.

[TorqueSkeptic]

In the TT game it is not a special trait, rather a specific action every hero/Lord or even unit commanders can use and that is to "challenge" the rival to a 1 on 1 duel in which they are virtually immune to everything else happening outside. I remember an old game Mark of Chaos had the feature in game battles to create these sort of 1 one 1. thing is in the TT mount and lord are 1, they each have their stats and HP but for movement purpose they are one. if happens that the lord dies, there is a roll dice chart in which you must check the reaction of the mount (leaves the battle, stay still and defend the lord corpse or even go on a rampage against the enemy.

My guess regarding the TW game is that other than less thing to program for the devs and the AI to handle, they won't include this option because then you will need to worry about what to do with the mount we the lord dismounts: -you let the mount fight alone? why gift a free unit and go 21 against 20, not to mention that this free unit can be a chariot or a horse, but can also be a Terrogheist..or when the lord dismounts the mount leaves the battle, well what a disappointment it would be. IT is probably for the best if they stay 1 single unit.

I meant to ask a while ago this, talking about mounts, but I recall noticing that while using Manfredd on Terrorgheist he seems to give his skill tree bonuses to only flying units, meanwhile the plebs on the ground are not affected by him, like is some sort of division between flying and ground unit, is this correct or am I just mistaken?

Though you do have a good point, the enemy will also have access to these abilities too.

[Påsan]

Problem with challenges (which actually happens a lot since you'll usually use heroes and lords to take down enemy lords) Is that the player would just make a duel monster on a flying mount and beeline him towards the nearest general/wizard. If a duel means nobody can interfere then the weaker character is screwed.

Unless you add a rejection mechanic. Maybe if a character rejects a challenge then he looses all leadership bonuses he gives to troops for like 60s.

[Beas7ie]

In the TT game it is not a special trait, rather a specific action every hero/Lord or even unit commanders can use and that is to "challenge" the rival to a 1 on 1 duel in which they are virtually immune to everything else happening outside. I remember an old game Mark of Chaos had the feature in game battles to create these sort of 1 one 1. thing is in the TT mount and lord are 1, they each have their stats and HP but for movement purpose they are one. if happens that the lord dies, there is a roll dice chart in which you must check the reaction of the mount (leaves the battle, stay still and defend the lord corpse or even go on a rampage against the enemy.

My guess regarding the TW game is that other than less thing to program for the devs and the AI to handle, they won't include this option because then you will need to worry about what to do with the mount we the lord dismounts: -you let the mount fight alone? why gift a free unit and go 21 against 20, not to mention that this free unit can be a chariot or a horse, but can also be a Terrogheist..or when the lord dismounts the mount leaves the battle, well what a disappointment it would be. IT is probably for the best if they stay 1 single unit.

I meant to ask a while ago this, talking about mounts, but I recall noticing that while using Manfredd on Terrorgheist he seems to give his skill tree bonuses to only flying units, meanwhile the plebs on the ground are not affected by him, like is some sort of division between flying and ground unit, is this correct or am I just mistaken?

Warhammer is obviously different than other TW games but one thing that could be done is what previous games did in that what mounts did when cav units dismounted depended on where they were and what they were doing. If they were away from any action such as fighting or getting shot at, the the mounts would just stay there and the dismounted cav could go back to them and mount up later on. I mostly used this in games where mounted units had to dismount to capture points. I would take them to the point, have them dismount and cap it, then mount up and move on.

Now if enemy units were near, or missile units were firing on the cav, then the mounts would bolt and those cav units would have to fight dismounted for the rest of the battle.

This could work for Warhammer.

Alternatively if it's flying units like the dragons or terrorgheists there are also a couple of things that could be done. One could have them just fly off and leave the battle. This could be used to get your general to a spot to either fight a strong enemy or reinforce a losing ally but it would be a one way trip so you'd have to be sure that's the spot you want your general to zip off to as he'd have to use his own feet(or hooves, or claws, or whatever) for the rest of the battle.

Another could be to have the mounts circle overhead and just fly around. They can't be directly controlled and they can't attack or be attacked by any enemies. If the general can then get in a relatively safe place he can then "call" the mount back and remount. A cool way to use this would be to have a general like Mannfred fly his zombie dragon to the walls, dismount and fight on foot, and then either run off to a fairly deserted area or wait for enemies there to be killed or rout then call his zombie dragon back, remount it, and then fly off to a different part of the map to fight again.

It will be definitely tricky finding the "right way" to do this, but most of these solutions would be much better than just having a lord or general stuck on his mount.


Duels would be tricker and should definitely depend on the characters. That's also a discussion for a different thread.

[Beas7ie]

Problem with challenges (which actually happens a lot since you'll usually use heroes and lords to take down enemy lords) Is that the player would just make a duel monster on a flying mount and beeline him towards the nearest general/wizard. If a duel means nobody can interfere then the weaker character is screwed.

Unless you add a rejection mechanic. Maybe if a character rejects a challenge then he looses all leadership bonuses he gives to troops for like 60s.

It should also depend on the character. Lords and Generals have different strengths and features. Some are spellcasters, some are a mix, and some are melee fighters. A primarily spellcaster like a wizard or necromancer should definitely be able to "refuse" a duel without any major penalities as that's not their job. Their meant to control other units or shoot fire or lightning at the enemy, not fight hand to hand. Others like Kemmler can have "champions" fight in their place like Kemmler can have Krell fight the duel for him and then Krell will jump in and fight whoever.(We also need an official Krell).

Other options can be to prevent units from joining directly, but some can still provide support.(Like a wizard can cast buff spells on his ally)

And then of course after some time, the losing character can be able to break off and try and run away but this will have a large cost of leadership to the army and of course the fighter is still free to try and chase him down and finish the job.

[Markas]

Alternatively if it's flying units like the dragons or terrorgheists there are also a couple of things that could be done. One could have them just fly off and leave the battle. This could be used to get your general to a spot to either fight a strong enemy or reinforce a losing ally but it would be a one way trip so you'd have to be sure that's the spot you want your general to zip off to as he'd have to use his own feet(or hooves, or claws, or whatever) for the rest of the battle.

Another could be to have the mounts circle overhead and just fly around. They can't be directly controlled and they can't attack or be attacked by any enemies. If the general can then get in a relatively safe place he can then "call" the mount back and remount. A cool way to use this would be to have a general like Mannfred fly his zombie dragon to the walls, dismount and fight on foot, and then either run off to a fairly deserted area or wait for enemies there to be killed or rout then call his zombie dragon back, remount it, and then fly off to a different part of the map to fight again.

It will be definitely tricky finding the "right way" to do this, but most of these solutions would be much better than just having a lord or general stuck on his mount.

I don't think any of those suggestions are particularly elegant or workable. If I'm on a horse it just stands still and turns invincible when I dismount? Have a Wyvern taxi take me to a place and then fly off map looking for a new fare? They seem as arbitrary as how it is now. The biggest issue seems to be what happens to the mount. Does it fight separately from you, effectively giving you a free unit, or stand like a statue until you mount and it springs to life?

Targetable mounts I'd be all for, but then there would have to be separate hit-point pool for mount and rider and how will hits be distributed? honestly I think these solutions are just throwing up more problems over implementation, and those spouting out the 'oh it's just common sense and logic' are rarely the ones to provide any meaningful answers.

[daelin4]

Considering what the OP is trying o deal with, I think the better solution is to simply enable Mounted characters to land and continue fighting on the ground. There's no need to get overly complex and try to introduce features like making a single unit split into two that fight on their own. I mean the main goal is to have a flying character fight on the ground, the rest is extraneous and probably better off in another thread of discussion.

This is also at root a simpler issue: toggling between flying and walking (crawling?) means the issue is restricted to flying units, and also restricts the unit to it's performance as a single unit.

In short: yes, flying units should have some way to enable combat on the ground; no, flying units shouldn't separate from their mounts, this leads to what I can only imagine to a can of worms in the form of new technical and balance problems.

[TorqueSkeptic]

This discussion has got very complex, but a lot of the ideas seemed workable. Whether they're to technically ambitious is down to CA, but I can't imagine it being impossible to balance and implement in a future game.

[Beas7ie]

I don't think any of those suggestions are particularly elegant or workable. If I'm on a horse it just stands still and turns invincible when I dismount? Have a Wyvern taxi take me to a place and then fly off map looking for a new fare? They seem as arbitrary as how it is now. The biggest issue seems to be what happens to the mount. Does it fight separately from you, effectively giving you a free unit, or stand like a statue until you mount and it springs to life?

Targetable mounts I'd be all for, but then there would have to be separate hit-point pool for mount and rider and how will hits be distributed? honestly I think these solutions are just throwing up more problems over implementation, and those spouting out the 'oh it's just common sense and logic' are rarely the ones to provide any meaningful answers.

I think you missed the part where I said it depends on the mount and situation. If the general is in the thick of battle on just a normal horse and he dismounts, then that horse should run away just like what happened when cavalry units dismounted near fighting in Rome 2 and Attila. In this situation, you can get your general or hero to the thick of the fighting quickly but if you dismount then it's a one way trip. Having a horse stand still and be invincible in the thick of battle would be stupid.

If it's a flying unit that can be called back, then the general also has to be in a relatively safe position. So you can't have Karl Franz fly in on Deathclaw, jump off and fight for a while, then have Deathclaw just swoop back in and pick him up if he's all alone being mobbed by the enemy. He's going to at least have to get somewhere that's relatively safe before he remounts again. Or alternatively have even those "legendary" mounts fly off the map so the general has to hoof it the rest of the battle. So in this situation, yes, you may be able to "taxi" a general or hero someplace, but if you dismount him or her for whatever reason, then it's a one way trip.

And then of course, there's also the option of having a general get knocked off the mount if his health drops to a certain level like 25% or so. The mount itself wouldn't be separately targetable, any attacks would still target the general or hero, it would just have the mount die or get wounded and have the general fall off and have to fight on foot for rest of the battle. Perhaps this shouldn't be used for the more standard mounts but I can see it working for flying mounts and would also act as a good tradeoff. In this way then you can have a situation where you can fly your hero or lord over the enemy to have a good vantage point to cast spells or just provide overall support, but if he gets focused enough by enemy spells or ranged attacks then he can be knocked off and fall right into the enemy army so you have to decide for yourself if that risk is worth the possible advantages.

Sure, none of these is the "perfect solution" but there really is no harm in CA at very least trying to experiment with some of these and try and get a good fit.

And in the meantime, I'll just have all my generals and heroes fight on foot.