Thread: SSHIP - General Discussion

  1. #3361
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by MWY View Post
    As far as I know, we threw both corracios together for space in the EDU. The model of the corracio always has one texture, no variations afaik. So it's either pisan or venetian. Soldiers wearing green is quite outdated lifth, the captain there aswell. So Alavarias pic is how it is supposed to look.
    Wrong Mate. I implemented the EDU to get 2 models (to let Pisa has its own)
    Also, the crew is coded outside the carroccio itself. To be simple, 1 entry for the carroccio and 1 entry for its crew.
    I think that you took the wrong files for the last release

    Edit 1: on top of that, the Carroccio were mostly used during the 13th century while the pavise shield seems to have been used later (late 14th - early 15th century if I'm not mistaken).



    Edit 2: More input about the Pavise shield:
    Pavise: A large oblong shield used mainly by archers and crossbowmen from the 14th century to the beginning of the 16th. It was also widely used by other foot soldiers. A typical feature was the central groove on the inside to hold a stake that was inserted in the ground to act as a prop: this groove was nearly always emphasized on the outside by a raised panel running the full height of the pavise. The purpose of the support was twofold: it freed the bowman's hands to enable him to shoot and provide the crossbowman with temporary shelter while spanning and loading his weapon. There is evidence that the shield, and hence its name, originated in the city of Pavia in northern Italy. Soon thereafter the pavise was extensively used throughout Europe. The shield was generally rounded at the top and sometimes at the bottom too, with straight sides widening slightly towards the base. The central groove was either straight or broadened out toward the bottom. The whole shield tended to be concave on the inside, and two straps, called GUIGES, or chains were fitted there so that the soldier could carry it on his back from place to place. The framework was generally made of wood and faced with cloth, parchment, or cuir-bouilli, although a few were reinforced with iron bands. The pavise was also used as an assault defense, and for this purpose special spikes were fitted along the bottom edge to enable the shield to be thrust into the ground as the attacking force advanced. There was also a metal observation grille at the top. A hand pavise was a smaller version of the pavise, fitted on the inside with the ENARMES. It was customary for the front of the pavise to be decoratively painted in a wide variety of designs, including city or personal armorial bearings.
    I'm really not sure that Pavise spearmen fit to handle the Carroccio
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; January 26, 2017 at 03:37 AM.
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  2. #3362

    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Edit 2: More input about the Pavise shield:

    I'm really not sure that Pavise spearmen fit to handle the Carroccio
    The actual soldiers in the EDU are of the type "Carroccio_Standard" so the version I have had them deliberately set to that.

    Also, the plot thickens as:


    So are they supposed to be more like the Crossbowmen unit (I think in reality they rode on a large wagon with oxen pulling it or something but...)
    Last edited by Alavaria; January 26, 2017 at 03:58 AM.

  3. #3363
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    Well, if we really want to be accurate, here are a cxouple of definitions
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    A Carroccio was a four-wheeled war altar, mounting a large vexillum standard, drawn by oxen, used by the medieval republics of Italy. It was a rectangular platform on which the standard of the city and an altar were erected; priests held services on the altar before the battle, and the trumpeters beside them encouraged the fighters to the fray.
    In battle the Carroccio was surrounded by the bravest warriors in the army as the carroccio guard, and it served both as a rallying-point and as the palladium of the city's honour; its capture by the enemy was regarded as an irretrievable defeat and humiliation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ritual in Early Modern Europe
    In the communes of mediaval Italy, a parade of military might be fixed on a carroccio, a cart or wagon pulled in battle and in many civic processions especially during wartime.
    I've also found a description of it in old French. Basically, it says that the Carroccio was a wagon, pulled by 4 pairs of oxen. It was the place for war council and ralliement during battles.
    Anyway, all sources I've found (except the one below and specifically for Milan) mentionned the carroccio guarded by infantry. No mention at all of archers or crossbowmen. So I guess that this description is wrong actually.

    Below, probably the best source I could find in English:
    Quote Originally Posted by Armies of Feudal Europe 1066 - 1300
    The carroccio was a characteristic feature of Italian warfare throughout this period and aoccasionally even appeared outside of Italy, such as at the Battle of the Standard in England, to which it gave its name, in the Hungarian army in Semlin in 1167 and the German army at Bouvines in 1214. The 1st recorded appearance of the carroccio dates to 1038, when Archbishop Aribert introduced the custom in Milan. Though it lasted until the late 15th century, its heyday was during the 12th century.

    The carrocvcio was painted, ox-drawn wagon consisting of a rectangular wooden platform supporting an altar and a mast, from which the standard flew. The mast of Bologna's is recorded as being 12 feet tall, while Archbishop Aribert's is recorded to have been very tall "likethe mast of a ship", held upright by ropes and surmounted by a gold crucifix.

    Bologna's and Parma's carroccios carried red standards with white crosses, Florence's a parti-coloured standard of crimson over white, whilst those of other cities often displayed patron saints or crucifixion scenes. In Aribert's time, Milan's was "dazzlingly white" with "in the centre a holy cross painted with our Saviour portrayed, his arms extended" but by 1180s a portrait of the city's patron saint, Ambrose, had replaced this, to be replaced in turn in the late 13th century by a white banner with a red cross.

    The mast (or masts - some appear to have 2) and the wagon body were painted red, while the wagon itself was covered in additiion with scarlet hangings by the 13th century. IUt was usually pulled by up to 3 pairs of white oxen; in Milan these had white harness and housings with red crosses, while in Florence their housings were crimson.

    Bologna's carroccio could hold 10 armed men, while the "crew" of the Milanese carroccio consisted at first of a driver, a paid officier (usually a specially selected knight), a priest and 8 trumpeters, plus a guard of 8 mounted knights. Since the loss of the carroccio, and more particularly its standard, was considered a grievous dishonour and humiliation it was always accompagnied by an elit guard unit in battle, principally composed of infantry; the Milanese carroccio at Legnano in 1176, for instance, was guarded by an infantry unit of 300 men, the "Company of the Carroccio", supplemented by another unit of 900 called the "Company of Death". In the 13th century the Bolognese carroccio had an infantry guard of as many as 1,500 men.

    The trumpeters appear to have transmitted simple commands accross the battlefield, as did the bell hung from the mast. The Florentines went one step further, accompanying their carroccio with a smaller wagon which carried a larger bell called the "Martinella". Carroccios were likewise sometimes given names - that of Cremona for example was Christened "Berta", and that of Parma "Blancardo".
    Anyway, for the game, I guess that we can stick with only one model but made with a general and common texture (as per above - white and red) without any faction symbol. All descriptions should only refer to the carroccio itself but not to any specific faction as well (like "venetian" at present). What do you think?
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; January 26, 2017 at 06:50 AM.
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  4. #3364
    Navajo Joe's Avatar SS Forum Moderator
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    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    I cannot understand how archers or Crossbowmen could be used, as they are an offensive unit(s), the standard would have to be protected by elite infantry, to lose it in battle would be like a Roman Legion losing its Eagle. Medieval folk were also superstitious and its loss would no doubt have a serious psychological effect on the who lost it.





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  5. #3365

    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    any news about when the next update for this mod might come to be?
    Wil you play the game? the game of thrones.

  6. #3366
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Navajo Joe View Post
    I cannot understand how archers or Crossbowmen could be used, as they are an offensive unit(s), the standard would have to be protected by elite infantry, to lose it in battle would be like a Roman Legion losing its Eagle. Medieval folk were also superstitious and its loss would no doubt have a serious psychological effect on the who lost it.
    Most of the sources I could find mention urban militia or elite infantry. I think that, depending of the city, it was actually a mix of both in which the commoner was fighting beside the noble. For sure, no mention of archers or crossbowmen. That description in game is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by FOR GONDOR View Post
    any news about when the next update for this mod might come to be?
    I'm still not able to give such info. As said recently, I'm busy like hell with some other duties on TWC site and RL. I'm doing my best to catch up but don't expect anything before a couple of months... earliest.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; January 26, 2017 at 01:22 PM.
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  7. #3367

    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    For me, I'm really busy with my masterthesis. I think we could release the current beta soon though. I don't think it has any bigger issues.

  8. #3368
    Civis
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    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    rc 2.0 for next update would be decent. In current state I do like archery combat, not overpowered or too weak. Horse or melee combat not that good .
    Will BGR option be available later, maybe with 1.0 release ?

  9. #3369
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    - RC2.0: may be

    - BGR in SSHIP: not planned
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  10. #3370

    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    BGR in SSHIP: not planned
    Heh, BGR... I never sat down to look at the documentation for that and probably won't since it would mean going back to pre-SSHIP SS.

    Then again that version is a lot "looser" with tech..

  11. #3371
    man_2012's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Tips for A Beginner

    Hello guys, I've installed and downloaded this mod + ss 6.4 a few weeks ago and I've played this on M/M (im a total newbie), played one campaign as Novgorod and I think I basically lost at turn 130-ish when my Faction Leader is an Usurper. Economy collapsed, unrest was rampant, generals' loyalty was close to zero. Pretty interesting i must say, it makes me want to replay the campaign and this mod surely has a decent learning curve.

    I'd like to ask for opinions from you guys on the things that I should pay attention to and if possible, some general advice in playing this mod.

  12. #3372
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    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    Loyalty problem can be easily solved we often strugle with it in early game but later it won't cause problems. Loayalty can be gained from Battles if you send your general, try picking up fights against rebels and win Heroic victories, in this mod cavalry is very strong. Give to important generals Titles, city crowns. Try to maintain >= 4 Loyalty and split ancilaries that give loyalty to other generals because having <= 3 loyalty your general gets bad traits.
    How to deal with usurpers. Try to find princess with atleast 1 or 2 positive fertile traits so your biological father produces biological sons. Another way to deal with it is to kill usurper if he becomes Heir, only Bastard sons becomes usurpers.

  13. #3373

    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by MWY View Post
    For me, I'm really busy with my masterthesis. I think we could release the current beta soon though. I don't think it has any bigger issues.
    This could be a good idea about release the current beta, and after release the new patch, for make the wait less tired...but for other hand if is better hope for get a best mod and polished release i prefer hope
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  14. #3374

    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    This could be a good idea about release the current beta, and after release the new patch, for make the wait less tired...but for other hand if is better hope for get a best mod and polished release i prefer hope
    It is two edge sword.
    On one side they can wait and release finished mod (but than they must alway answer on question: is it ready?)
    on the other side, if they release unbugged beta, they will have complaints
    I think the best solution is to wait on final version and someone from community will answer on repeating annoying questions (or make FAQ)

  15. #3375
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Tips for A Beginner

    Quote Originally Posted by man_2012 View Post
    Hello guys, I've installed and downloaded this mod + ss 6.4 a few weeks ago and I've played this on M/M (im a total newbie), played one campaign as Novgorod and I think I basically lost at turn 130-ish when my Faction Leader is an Usurper. Economy collapsed, unrest was rampant, generals' loyalty was close to zero. Pretty interesting i must say, it makes me want to replay the campaign and this mod surely has a decent learning curve.

    I'd like to ask for opinions from you guys on the things that I should pay attention to and if possible, some general advice in playing this mod.
    Some random issues:
    - army is very expensive - keep it at minimum unless you're going for expedition to take a settlement,
    - don't recruit heavy infantry or cavalry unless you're going to battle. As Poland with 5 (later 10 and 15) provinces I could afford max. 5 heavy infantry and 3 heavy cavalry for the first 150-200 turns; I used to disband units if I didn't need to.
    - build buildings in Novgorod and other cities - economy is much more important in this mod for units are so expensive,
    - Novgorod is comparatively safe, but build watchtowers to see if enemy army approaches. Distances are very long so you'll have chance to build a few units before it comes. Mercenaries might be useful (I recall Eastern Spearmen and berdiche guys). You've got time, it's not Attila-like sudden incursions.
    - you need to take Polock immediately (perhaps with your first army, I don't know how does it look like at the beginning), Polock is a great trade centre (connection with 7 provinces),
    - Lithuania is probably easy first target of expansion
    - make trade agreement with Kiev, I think.
    - I think Novgorod has a problem not having a castle - go for Revel.
    - use you generals as governors to make money (well, with my mod is easier) and to keep order.
    - for loyalty - I don't know if there's a different system for Novgorod being a traders' republic. If there's not - just keep your blood line, don't adopt to family.
    Sorry for a mess in these advices.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; January 27, 2017 at 01:56 PM.
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  16. #3376
    SirPeacemaker's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default America?

    H guys. I really enjoy this mod. Medieval TW 2 its the best TW game ever. Anyway. I have a question. How am I supposed to get to America in this mod? I have had the "round world" announcement, but still cant sail to the west with those big ships. Or maybe there is no America in this mod? (I know there are some mods out with no America included) Thank you for your answer.
    Very good rocking song. The message of the song: WHEN PEOPLE LEARN TRUTH ABOUT UKRAINIAN WAR, THEY WILL GO INSANE!! (I suggest to turn the english subtitles on. Its over 18only because of violent pictures) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AAR6nUV7VI

  17. #3377

    Default Re: America?

    no America because of faction and unit limit

  18. #3378
    SirPeacemaker's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: America?

    Damn. What a shame. Nevr mind. I love the game anyway. Thank you for the answer.
    Very good rocking song. The message of the song: WHEN PEOPLE LEARN TRUTH ABOUT UKRAINIAN WAR, THEY WILL GO INSANE!! (I suggest to turn the english subtitles on. Its over 18only because of violent pictures) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AAR6nUV7VI

  19. #3379

    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    Turns out if you go crazy trying to put watchtowers to have vision everywhere (like: most of the map) M2TW really doesn't like it.

  20. #3380
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Alavaria View Post
    Turns out if you go crazy trying to put watchtowers to have vision everywhere (like: most of the map) M2TW really doesn't like it.
    I put watchtowers everywhere to have a vision of the whole realm (at the beginning it's expensive, those 500 florins, but later you can afford) and I haven't noticed it's spawns more rebels than usual. The benefits are much bigger - I've already lost a few generals suddenly caught by the rebels lurking in the woods.

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