SSHIP - General Discussion

[Jurand of Cracow]

there was such a mechanism in the Hispania in the Middle Ages mod by miguel_80. I think it requires some faction slots or something. It's not in our plans in the SSHIP, but if somebody would make a submod, this would be great.

[j.a.luna]

there was such a mechanism in the Hispania in the Middle Ages mod by miguel_80. I think it requires some faction slots or something. It's not in our plans in the SSHIP, but if somebody would make a submod, this would be great.

Ok my polish friend! and wouldn't it be possible for Miguel_80 to help you with this? or give you permission to implement it in sship mod? I think this modder if I'm not mistaken is also Spanish, if you want I could talk to him about it...

[Jurand of Cracow]

Ok my polish friend! and wouldn't it be possible for Miguel_80 to help you with this? or give you permission to implement it in sship mod? I think this modder if I'm not mistaken is also Spanish, if you want I could talk to him about it...

First of all, Miguel_80 is a distinguished moder, with a lot of experience and years of activity (although I don't know if he was active over the last two years). Second, we've got so many things to do in the SSHI, that we haven't considered his solutions. If he would like to join the team, we'd be welcomed with open arms, but one need to be interested in playing the mod, then start programming it, then make a submod, and only then it's worth to include it in the mod. I haven't seen Miguel being interested in this mod, so I won't be asking him to do something for us. It's also not a matter of language, but of Miguel's interests.

[Djangoo]

Hi I returned from a long break from historical titles finally to Medieval II and was happy to see that this mod still gets updates, wow!

Is there any way to turn battle realism mode off? I want to pause or play the battles slowly.

edit:my bad haha forgot about shift + click

[Jurand of Cracow]

pause or play the battles slowly ... shift + click

One of the major advantages of the Med2 engine over the Warscape games. There you can only slow down to 0.5, and the battles are very fast, you cannot make anything out of them but visual impressions (even in DeI).

[valerius karamanus]

What would SSHIP's ideal Mongolian invasion scenario look like? I'm wondering if they are a bit too powerful by design.
In my campaign they wiped the floor with Eastern factions shortly after the spawn (no surprise) but they are pushing into Western Europe with alarming might, going as far as landing in Scandinavia and West Africa. I feel like if I didn't stop them around the Alps (pure grind coincided with Black Death), they would easily paint the map yellow.

[Kilo11]

To be fair, there is an argument to be made that they well could have. After all, they didn't get pushed back by European knights or something. They stopped because Ögedei Khan died and they had to go back to Karakorum and decide on a new Great Khan.

[Jurand of Cracow]

What would SSHIP's ideal Mongolian invasion scenario look like? I'm wondering if they are a bit too powerful by design.
In my campaign they wiped the floor with Eastern factions shortly after the spawn (no surprise) but they are pushing into Western Europe with alarming might, going as far as landing in Scandinavia and West Africa. I feel like if I didn't stop them around the Alps (pure grind coincided with Black Death), they would easily paint the map yellow.

The plan for the Mongols is here, but it hasn't been implemented yet.
The Mongols should have very impaired recruitment outside the steppes. I'd like to see the composition of their armies, so I'm very curious your most recent save, I've seen turn 175 (see second entry to this thread). Do they have many Generals?
Recruitment in the cities looks reasonable, it's low outside the steppes and doesn't grow with the size of the settlements:

;- MONGOLS city barracks city_watch -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

recruit_pool "Kashtim Thralls" 1 0.13 2 0 requires factions { mongols, } and hidden_resource tartars
recruit_pool "Kashtim Thralls" 1 0.04 2 0 requires factions { mongols, } and not hidden_resource tartars


recruit_pool "Sibiryaki Junior Militia" 1 0.13 2 0 requires factions { mongols, }
recruit_pool "ME Peasant Archers" 1 0.07 2 0 requires factions { mongols, }

In Stables it's worse (not yet recoded), elsewhere it's more or less ok.

The aggressivity mechanisms by @Macaras seem to make them conquering the world, before it looked like this:

[valerius karamanus]

They are all yours Jurand: https://www.mediafire.com/file/m1t8m...rance.zip/file
Yeah that was interesting, driving Mongol hordes from Po Valley while enduring constant backstabs of Pisa. Poor HRE got beaten up badly. Interesting Serbia just chilling there minding its own bussiness whole time. Romans and Lithuanians were destroyed by lack of family members I think.

I should report some minor bugs while at it:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

-Portugal fleets getting stuck in the ocean. Notice they cant move anywhere at the map border.
-Louven has General's Bodyguard unit pool bugged (I may or may not have exploited it to compensate my lack of generals...)
-While priest recruitment has been a problem for all factions, Mongols are seemingly capable of deploying them in large numbers, they also use assassins actively
-A diplomat trait shows as Diplomat_Bad3
-Halberd Militia unit card is placeholder
-Bank construction stops for several turns sometimes, maybe theres a dynamic requirement I'm now aware of?

[Jurand of Cracow]

Great! First question: do you remember how Guy Capet has acquired both Bard and Musician?
Based on coding, this shouldn't have happened...

;------------------------------------------ renaissance pic with lute
Ancillary musician
Type Entertain
Transferable 1
Image musician.tga
ExcludedAncillaries artist, actor
Description musician_desc
EffectsDescription musician_effects_desc
Effect LocalPopularity 1
;------------------------------------------ generic Med2 pic with lute
Ancillary bard
Type Entertain
Transferable 1
Image entertainment_bard.tga
ExcludedAncillaries musician, artist
ExcludeCultures middle_eastern, eastern_european, southern_european, greek
Description bard_desc
EffectsDescription bard_effects_desc
Effect TroopMorale 1
Effect LocalPopularity 1
Effect TaxCollection -1

[valerius karamanus]

Most likely the result of ancillary transfer to make room for FL crown.
By the way Polish first tourney event haunts me still. Maybe a base game engine issue causes this because script you posted seems fine to me.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Most likely the result of ancillary transfer to make room for FL crown.
By the way Polish first tourney event haunts me still. Maybe a base game engine issue causes this because script you posted seems fine to me.

But it shouldn't be possible for you to swap them together. I need to check.
Polish tourney - sloppy coding on our side, sorry. Are there any other pesky info windows popping out?

-Portugal fleets getting stuck in the ocean. Notice they cant move anywhere at the map border.
-Louven has General's Bodyguard unit pool bugged (I may or may not have exploited it to compensate my lack of generals...)
-While priest recruitment has been a problem for all factions, Mongols are seemingly capable of deploying them in large numbers, they also use assassins actively
-A diplomat trait shows as Diplomat_Bad3
-Halberd Militia unit card is placeholder
-Bank construction stops for several turns sometimes, maybe theres a dynamic requirement I'm now aware of?

- boats stuck in the ocean - seems to me to a map problem. No idea why. Maybe @Gigantus would know...
- yeah, this bug probably? I'll inspect - and disable the bodyguard recruitment, as we've done elsewhere. The characters should be born or gained, not recruited (for the gamplay reasons: there's a maximum number).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

- diplomat fixed
- unit card: for @kostic
- Mongol priests - I haven't reviewed the Tengir temples for a long time, thanks for pointing at it, I will.
- bank: for France, before Bardi event, you need to have your FL crowned for it to be available:

    money3 city requires factions { northern_european, southern_european, eastern_european, greek, middle_eastern, } and building_present_min_level market fairground and building_present_min_level city_hall council_chambers and hidden_resource capital and event_counter FL_is_crowned_ruler 1 or event_counter MONEY_BARDI_BANK 1 or event_counter faction_turn_islam 1 or event_counter faction_turn_byzantium 1    {
      capability
      {
        trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires not event_counter FL_policy_shady_connections 1 
        trade_base_income_bonus bonus 3 requires event_counter FL_policy_shady_connections 1 


        trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { poland, } and event_counter POLAND4A_STATUTE_OF_KALISZ 1
        trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { hungary, } and event_counter MONEY_KREMNICA_MINT 1
        trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { pisa, venice, sicily, hre, france, } and event_counter MONEY_BARDI_BANK 1


        income_bonus bonus 400 requires factions { france, } and event_counter MONEY_FIRST_ECU 1
        
        happiness_bonus bonus -1
        agent_limit merchant 1
        religion_level bonus -1    
        
;---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
; UPKEEP/INCOME        
        income_bonus bonus 400 requires factions { all, } and not event_counter FL_policy_greedy_ruler 1
        income_bonus bonus 600 requires factions { all, } and event_counter FL_policy_greedy_ruler 1
      }    
      material wooden
      construction  4
      cost  8000
      settlement_min city
      upgrades
      {
        money4
      }
    }

[valerius karamanus]

Polish tourney - sloppy coding on our side, sorry. Are there any other pesky info windows popping out?

I remember Ostsiedlung event appearing multiple times but it was not persistent as tourney.

Removing Bodyguard recruitment is a big decision but I guess only way to get rid of this exploitable bug. Personally I love having non-family member generals because I think M2TW's family system would benefit from a smaller family tree. That is because heir selection in this game is so frustrating that it always feels random in big families, it never follows a conventional father > first born > grandchild/second born succession. Most times this produces silly regency-usurper scenarios. I don't know how it can be solved.
- Perhaps some hidden traits to boost king's sons authority while nerfing every other male member in dynasty?
- Or multiple family system like they did in Tsardoms, which lets us only see the tree of royal family among all family members?

[Jurand of Cracow]

If you're interested, there's a constant work on new events for the mod:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

{BOOK_CITY_OF_LADIES_TITLE}Le Livre de la Cité des Dames {BOOK_CITY_OF_LADIES_BODY}The Book of the City of Ladies is a response of Christine de Pisan to Jean de Meun's "Roman de la Rose". Pizan combats Meun's statements about women by creating an allegorical city of ladies. She defends women by collecting a wide array of famous women throughout history. These women are "housed" in the City of Ladies, which is actually the book. As Pizan builds her city, she uses each famous woman as a building block for not only the walls and houses of the city but also as building blocks for her thesis. Each woman introduced to the city adds to Pizan's argument about women as valued participants in society. She also advocates in favor of education for women.\n\nVenetian by birth, Christine de Pisan served as a court writer in medieval France after the death of her husband. Christine's patrons included dukes Louis I of Orleans, Philip the Bold of Burgundy, and his son John the Fearless. Considered to be some of the earliest feminist writings, her work includes novels, poetry, and biography, and she also penned literary, historical, philosophical, political, and religious reviews and analyses. Her best-known works include The Book of the City of Ladies and The Treasure of the City of Ladies. Her books of advice to princesses, princes, and knights remained in print until the 16th century.


{BOOK_SPECULUM_MAIUS_TITLE}Speculum Maius
{BOOK_SPECULUM_MAIUS_BODY}Speculum maius was a major encyclopedia of the Middle Ages, written by Vincent de Beauvais in the 13th century. It was a great compendium of all knowledge of the time. The work seems to have consisted of three parts: the Speculum Naturale, Speculum Doctrinale, and Speculum Historiale. However, all the printed editions include the fourth part, the Speculum Morale, added in the 14th century and mainly compiled from Thomas Aquinas, Stephen de Bourbon, and a few other contemporary writers.\nVincent de Beauvais worked on his compendium for approximately 29 years (1235-1264) in the pursuit of presenting a compendium of all of the knowledge available at the time. He collected the materials for the work from Île-de-France libraries. He found support for the creation of the Great Mirror from the Dominican order to which he belonged as well as King Louis IX of France. The metaphor of the title has been argued to "reflect" the microcosmic relations of Medieval knowledge. In this case, the book mirrors "both the contents and organization of the cosmos". Vincent himself stated that he chose "Speculum" for its name because his work contains "whatever is worthy of contemplation (speculatio), that is, admiration or imitation".


{BOOK_LIBER_CHRONICARUM_TITLE}Liber Chronicarum
{BOOK_LIBER_CHRONICARUM_BODY}\nThe Nuremberg Chronicle is an illustrated encyclopedia consisting of world historical accounts, as well as accounts told through biblical paraphrases. Subjects include human history in relation to the Bible, illustrated mythological creatures, and the histories of important Christian and secular cities from antiquity. Finished in 1493, it was originally written in Latin by Hartmann Schedel, and a German version was translated by Georg Alt. It is one of the best-documented early printed books – an incunabulum – and one of the first to successfully integrate illustrations and text.


{BOOK_DEFENSOR_PACIS_TITLE}Defensor pacis
{BOOK_DEFENSOR_PACIS_BODY}Marsilius of Padua (c. 1270 – c. 1342) was an Italian scholar, trained in medicine, who practiced a variety of professions. He was also an important 14th-century political figure. His political treatise Defensor pacis (The Defender of Peace), an attempt to refute papalist claims to a "plenitude of power" in affairs of both church and state, is seen by some authorities as the most revolutionary political treatise written in the later Middle Ages. It is one of the first examples of a trenchant critique of caesaropapism in Western Europe. Most of Defensor pacis is devoted to theology. Relying heavily on Scripture, Marsilius seeks to show that Jesus did not claim to possess any temporal power and that he did not intend his church to exercise any. On the contrary, Scripture teaches that the church should be thoroughly subordinate to the state in both secular and spiritual matters. All authority in the church lies with the whole body of the faithful, the secular ruler who acts as the people's representative, and general councils called by the secular ruler.


{BOOK_PRESTER_JOHN_LETTER_TITLE}Letter of Prester John
{BOOK_PRESTER_JOHN_LETTER_BODY}We have received a letter from a distant world! Prester John, our savants have been telling us about for decades, is writing to the Christian world!/n/nPrester John (Latin: Presbyter Ioannes) was a legendary Christian patriarch, presbyter, and king. Stories popular in Europe in the 12th to the 17th centuries told of a Nestorian patriarch and king who was said to rule over a Christian nation lost amid the pagans and Muslims in the Orient. The accounts were often embellished with various tropes of medieval popular fantasy, depicting Prester John as a descendant of the Three Magi, ruling a kingdom full of riches, marvels, and strange creatures. At first, Prester John was imagined to reside in India. Tales of the Nestorian Christians' evangelistic success there and of Thomas the Apostle's subcontinental travels as documented in works like the Acts of Thomas probably provided the first seeds of the legend. Indeed, in 1122 a foreign visitor to Rome was audacious enough to introduce himself to Pope Callistus II’s entourage as a representative of “Patriarch John of India.” About 1165 copies of what was likely a forged Letter of Prester John started spreading throughout Europe. The credence given to the reports was such that in 1177 Pope Alexander III sent a letter to Prester John via his physician Philip. After the coming of the Mongols to the Western world, accounts placed the king in Central Asia, and eventually, Portuguese explorers came to believe that the term was a reference to Ethiopia, by which time it had been an isolated Christian "exclave" distant from any other Christian-ruled territory.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

{SCIENCE_TRANSLATION_GERARD_TITLE}Gerardus Cremonensis{SCIENCE_TRANSLATION_GERARD_BODY}Gerard of Cremona (c. 1114 – 1187) was an Italian translator of scientific books from Arabic into Latin. He worked in Toledo, Kingdom of Castile, and obtained there Arabic books. Some of the books had been originally written in Greek and, although well known in Byzantine Constantinople and Greece at the time, were unavailable in Greek or Latin in Western Europe. Gerard of Cremona is the most important translator among the Toledo School of Translators who invigorated Western medieval Europe in the twelfth century by transmitting the Arabs' and ancient Greeks' knowledge in astronomy, medicine, and other sciences, by making the knowledge available in Latin. One of Gerard's most famous translations is of Ptolemy's Almagest from indeed Arabic texts.


{SCIENCE_TRANSLATION_MOVEMENT_TITLE}Latin Translations
{SCIENCE_TRANSLATION_MOVEMENT_BODY}The Latin translations movement of the 12th century was spurred by a major search by European scholars for new learning sources unavailable in western Europe at the time. Their search led them to areas of southern Europe, particularly in central Spain and Sicily, which recently had come under Christian rule following their reconquest in the late 11th century. These areas had been under Muslim rule for a considerable time, and still had substantial Arabic-speaking populations to support their search. The combination of this accumulated knowledge and the substantial numbers of Arabic-speaking scholars there made these areas intellectually attractive, as well as culturally and politically accessible to Latin scholars. Unlike the interest in the literature and history of classical antiquity during the Renaissance, 12th-century translators sought new scientific, philosophical, and, to a lesser extent, religious texts. The latter concern was reflected in a renewed interest in translations of the Greek Church Fathers into Latin, a concern with translating Jewish teachings from Hebrew, and an interest in the Qur'an and other Islamic religious texts. In addition, some Arabic literature was also translated into Latin.


{SCIENCE_TRANSLATION_LIBER_SECRETORUM_TITLE}Liber Secretorum translated
{SCIENCE_TRANSLATION_LIBER_SECRETORUM_BODY}\nThe Book of Secrets (Arabic: Kitab al-Asrar; Latin: Liber Secretorum) by Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi was published in Europe in the middle of the 12th century. It has been often confused with the Secretum Secretorum, also dealing with alchemy, but from a more occultic point of view. The 'Liber' deals more technically with alchemy, providing practical recipes, classification of minerals, and descriptions of laboratory equipment and procedures.\n\nGAME STRATEGY: from this time on, the Catholic factions will be able to build Alchemists' Labs.

[Jason the Argonaut]

Hi all,

My first time posting to this site, so apologies in advance if this isn't the right place or anything like that. I had a question regarding religion in SSHIP, and particularly for playing as Georgia.
I know that religious buildings and agents affect the region they're in, but is there any kind of invisible "osmosis" effect for religion at play? At the start of my Georgia campaign, the Orthodox level in my capital is decreasing, despite having a level 2 church and no foreign agents of other religions that I can see at all--Orthodox is decreasing, while Pagan and Islam are rising. Is there any factor that means if you border a number of regions where those religions are dominant, they start affecting religious levels in your own region too? Or is it possible there's something in the files for Georgia that makes their religious buildings/agents less effective somehow? Just don't get how my own religion is decreasing without other religious agents and with a religious building in play.

Thanks to anyone for any help on this!

[Jurand of Cracow]

I know that religious buildings and agents affect the region they're in, but is there any kind of invisible "osmosis" effect for religion at play? At the start of my Georgia campaign, the Orthodox level in my capital is decreasing, despite having a level 2 church and no foreign agents of other religions that I can see at all--Orthodox is decreasing, while Pagan and Islam are rising. Is there any factor that means if you border a number of regions where those religions are dominant, they start affecting religious levels in your own region too? Or is it possible there's something in the files for Georgia that makes their religious buildings/agents less effective somehow? Just don't get how my own religion is decreasing without other religious agents and with a religious building in play.

I don't know all ins-and-outs, but I believe that already in the Med2 engine there's that osmosis effect, as it explicitely is in the newer games, like Attila.

[Jason the Argonaut]

I don't know all ins-and-outs, but I believe that already in the Med2 engine there's that osmosis effect, as it explicitely is in the newer games, like Attila.

I see. I could understand if my own religion wasn't increasing too quickly, but I just didn't get why other religions were increasing while my own actually decreased. Thank you for chiming in!
As a follow-up, is the apparent restriction on Orthodox factions that prevents them from recruiting priests unless they've built a Cathedral for historical/realism purposes?

[Jurand of Cracow]

is the apparent restriction on Orthodox factions that prevents them from recruiting priests unless they've built a Cathedral for historical/realism purposes?

iirc, the restrictions are the same as for the Catholic (and Muslim as well) factions, and these are more for the gameplay: there're simply too many agents before and we're trying to keep the number 1-2 per agent type for small and medium factions, only after some time rising to 3+. There's a pop-out window in-game explaining for each type of agents (but spies and assassins, it's still to be done in the future) how does it work and which builidings would increase the max number.

[Cattsy]

Can we have more size unit like 200-300

[Jurand of Cracow]

Can we have more size unit like 200-300

I don't think it's a good idea as pathfinding in the cities and castles would be even bigger nightmare than it is now.