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Thread: SICILY

  1. #21

    Default Re: SICILY

    sship developers do you think you can modify the heraldry and standard bearers of the Sicilians? Currently the game begins in 1132 with the reigning Norman house of the "Altavilla" ( https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casa_de_Altavilla ), and the banners with the black eagle and yellow and red colors correspond to the flag heraldry of the Kingdom of Sicily under the House of Aragon (1243 to 1816). As a coat of arms, this arrangement dates from the 14th century. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...ump-to-license

    The "Tinacria" also appears on the shields to choose faction/pass turn,
    https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Sicilia

    Should its heraldry be remodeled or maybe mixed?
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  2. #22

    Default Re: SICILY

    Ive done some more thinking on how to show the large number of greeks in the kingdom and I think that if you want to represent them via a unit like you have done with muslims then the peltast are a good choice as they fill a niche that the catholic and muslim units have left largely empty.

  3. #23
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: SICILY

    @j.a.luna & @Stivanderen : Thanks for your suggestions. Indeed, the flags carried by soldiers are often not appropriate to the twelfth century. They are supposed to cover the entire period of the game since there is - a priori - no upgrade for the standard bearers.This is an aspect that I have not yet explored, but there is something to do !
    For the presence of Greeks in southern Italy and Sicily, indeed, a peltast unit might be a good idea.

  4. #24

    Default Re: SICILY

    Quote Originally Posted by kostic View Post
    @j.a.luna & @Stivanderen : Thanks for your suggestions. Indeed, the flags carried by soldiers are often not appropriate to the twelfth century. They are supposed to cover the entire period of the game since there is - a priori - no upgrade for the standard bearers.This is an aspect that I have not yet explored, but there is something to do !
    For the presence of Greeks in southern Italy and Sicily, indeed, a peltast unit might be a good idea.

    "Ive done some more thinking on how to show the large number of greeks in the kingdom and I think that if you want to represent them via a unit like you have done with muslims then the peltast are a good choice as they fill a niche that the catholic and muslim units have left largely empty."



    @Jurand and @kostic , due to the multiculturality of the Norman kingdom of Sicily, a Muslim unit ( berber archers, andath archers) and a Greek unit ( peltastes/acontistae) could be added for the next June version in the regions of Sicily and southern Italy (Palermo, Reggio, Bari) to represent this in-game? maybe AOR unit or for Sicily only, but it would be a plus for gameplay in these regions. Something similar happened in the Iberian Peninsula with the multiculturalism of religions (Andalusians and Mozarabs/Mudejars).
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  5. #25
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: SICILY

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    @Jurand and @kostic , due to the multiculturality of the Norman kingdom of Sicily, a Muslim unit ( berber archers, andath archers) and a Greek unit ( peltastes/acontistae) could be added for the next June version in the regions of Sicily and southern Italy (Palermo, Reggio, Bari) to represent this in-game? maybe AOR unit or for Sicily only, but it would be a plus for gameplay in these regions. Something similar happened in the Iberian Peninsula with the multiculturalism of religions (Andalusians and Mozarabs/Mudejars).
    Yes, Berber units are available there as mercenaries:
    Code:
    ;================================================================================================================= Switzerland     pool Sicily
    	regions Naples_Province Palermo_Province Bari_Province Ancona_Province Reggio_Province
    	
    ;	unit merc galley			exp 3 cost 1350 replenish 0.02 - 0.10 max 1 initial 1
    	unit Mercenary Crossbowmen		exp 3 cost 1880 replenish 0.03 - 0.06 max 1 initial 1 end_year 1300
    	unit Mercenary Pavise Crossbowmen	exp 4 cost 2013 replenish 0.03 - 0.06 max 1 initial 1 start_year 1350
    	unit Mercenary Arquebusiers		exp 3 cost 1840 replenish 0.03 - 0.06 max 1 initial 0 start_year 1450 events { gunpowder_discovered }
    	unit Mercenary Knights			exp 3 cost 1256 replenish 0.03 - 0.06 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1300 religions { catholic orthodox }
    	unit Mercenary Spearmen			exp 2 cost 1936 replenish 0.04 - 0.08 max 1 initial 0
    	unit Condottieri			exp 4 cost 1403 replenish 0.04 - 0.08 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1400 religions { catholic orthodox }
    	unit Catalans				exp 6 cost 1592 replenish 0.04 - 0.18 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1300
    	unit Mercenary Ribault			exp 0 cost 2857 replenish 0.02 - 0.04 max 2 initial 0 start_year 1260 end_year 1359
    	unit Mercenary Ribault			exp 0 cost 2357 replenish 0.02 - 0.04 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1360 end_year 1399
    	unit Mercenary Monster Ribault	exp 0 cost 1872 replenish 0.03 - 0.06 max 2 initial 0 start_year 1400	
    	unit Macemen					exp 0 cost 1781 replenish 0.03 - 0.06 max 1 initial 0 end_year 1330
    
    
    ;- Light Cavalry
    	unit Scouts			exp 0 cost 1157 replenish 0.06 - 0.12 max 2 initial 1 end_year 1199
    	unit Scouts			exp 1 cost 1157 replenish 0.05 - 0.10 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1200 end_year 1399
    	unit Scouts			exp 3 cost 1157 replenish 0.03 - 0.06 max 1 initial 1 start_year 1400
    
    
    
    
    
    
    ;--------------------------- MISSILES:
    
    
    ;- Berber Archers - very rare, travelling accross the straight from Africa
    
    
    	unit Berber Archers				exp 0 cost 1245 replenish 0.02 - 0.04 max 2 initial 0 end_year 1236
    	unit Berber Archers				exp 1 cost 1245 replenish 0.03 - 0.06 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1237 end_year 1390
    	unit Berber Archers				exp 4 cost 1245 replenish 0.02 - 0.04 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1391
    
    
    ;--------------------------- SPEARMEN:
    
    
    ;- Berber Spearmen and Pikemen - very rare, travelling accross the straight from Africa
    
    
    	unit Lamtuna Spearmen			exp 0 cost 2075 replenish 0.02 - 0.04 max 2 initial 0 end_year 1236
    	unit Lamtuna Spearmen			exp 1 cost 2075 replenish 0.03 - 0.06 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1237 end_year 1390
    	unit Lamtuna Spearmen			exp 4 cost 2075 replenish 0.02 - 0.04 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1391
    
    
    ;--------------------------- INFANTRY:
    
    
    	unit Norman Serjeants				exp 2 cost 2101 replenish 0.05 - 0.12 max 2 initial 1 end_year 1199
    	unit Norman Serjeants				exp 1 cost 2101 replenish 0.02 - 0.04 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1200 end_year 1299

  6. #26

    Default Re: SICILY

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Yes, Berber units are available there as mercenaries:
    Code:
    ;================================================================================================================= Switzerland     pool Sicily
    	regions Naples_Province Palermo_Province Bari_Province Ancona_Province Reggio_Province
    	
    ;	unit merc galley			exp 3 cost 1350 replenish 0.02 - 0.10 max 1 initial 1
    	unit Mercenary Crossbowmen		exp 3 cost 1880 replenish 0.03 - 0.06 max 1 initial 1 end_year 1300
    	unit Mercenary Pavise Crossbowmen	exp 4 cost 2013 replenish 0.03 - 0.06 max 1 initial 1 start_year 1350
    	unit Mercenary Arquebusiers		exp 3 cost 1840 replenish 0.03 - 0.06 max 1 initial 0 start_year 1450 events { gunpowder_discovered }
    	unit Mercenary Knights			exp 3 cost 1256 replenish 0.03 - 0.06 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1300 religions { catholic orthodox }
    	unit Mercenary Spearmen			exp 2 cost 1936 replenish 0.04 - 0.08 max 1 initial 0
    	unit Condottieri			exp 4 cost 1403 replenish 0.04 - 0.08 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1400 religions { catholic orthodox }
    	unit Catalans				exp 6 cost 1592 replenish 0.04 - 0.18 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1300
    	unit Mercenary Ribault			exp 0 cost 2857 replenish 0.02 - 0.04 max 2 initial 0 start_year 1260 end_year 1359
    	unit Mercenary Ribault			exp 0 cost 2357 replenish 0.02 - 0.04 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1360 end_year 1399
    	unit Mercenary Monster Ribault	exp 0 cost 1872 replenish 0.03 - 0.06 max 2 initial 0 start_year 1400	
    	unit Macemen					exp 0 cost 1781 replenish 0.03 - 0.06 max 1 initial 0 end_year 1330
    
    
    ;- Light Cavalry
    	unit Scouts			exp 0 cost 1157 replenish 0.06 - 0.12 max 2 initial 1 end_year 1199
    	unit Scouts			exp 1 cost 1157 replenish 0.05 - 0.10 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1200 end_year 1399
    	unit Scouts			exp 3 cost 1157 replenish 0.03 - 0.06 max 1 initial 1 start_year 1400
    
    
    
    
    
    
    ;--------------------------- MISSILES:
    
    
    ;- Berber Archers - very rare, travelling accross the straight from Africa
    
    
    	unit Berber Archers				exp 0 cost 1245 replenish 0.02 - 0.04 max 2 initial 0 end_year 1236
    	unit Berber Archers				exp 1 cost 1245 replenish 0.03 - 0.06 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1237 end_year 1390
    	unit Berber Archers				exp 4 cost 1245 replenish 0.02 - 0.04 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1391
    
    
    ;--------------------------- SPEARMEN:
    
    
    ;- Berber Spearmen and Pikemen - very rare, travelling accross the straight from Africa
    
    
    	unit Lamtuna Spearmen			exp 0 cost 2075 replenish 0.02 - 0.04 max 2 initial 0 end_year 1236
    	unit Lamtuna Spearmen			exp 1 cost 2075 replenish 0.03 - 0.06 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1237 end_year 1390
    	unit Lamtuna Spearmen			exp 4 cost 2075 replenish 0.02 - 0.04 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1391
    
    
    ;--------------------------- INFANTRY:
    
    
    	unit Norman Serjeants				exp 2 cost 2101 replenish 0.05 - 0.12 max 2 initial 1 end_year 1199
    	unit Norman Serjeants				exp 1 cost 2101 replenish 0.02 - 0.04 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1200 end_year 1299
    Perfect Jurand, good decision! But for one greek unit , representing the Greek-Byzantine and Orthodox population that lived in Sicily, do you think they could be represented in some way besides their religious contribution? through some mercenary unit or cultural building?
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  7. #27

    Default Re: SICILY

    Just to ramble based on the above messages:

    I personally find the multi-ethnic compositions of the Andalusian, Sicilian, as well as to a degree the Romans and the Abbasid, an intriguing aspect of their states. I think a strong argument can be made that each of these states was at their greatest influence/power when they were at their most "multicultural" as we would call it today. Once an identity begins forming amongst the elite or ruling classes they start oppressing those they rule over. I mean, just look at the sicilian vespers or even today the way Castilian or French is pushing out the last vestiges of Basque and Breton. The difficult part is implementing such things in the game. We're basically confined to visual representation. In my toponomy mod I didn't really know how to go about it either, and ended up splitting the toponyms between Arabic, Latin, and Greek.

  8. #28

    Default Re: SICILY

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    Perfect Jurand, good decision! But for one greek unit , representing the Greek-Byzantine and Orthodox population that lived in Sicily, do you think they could be represented in some way besides their religious contribution? through some mercenary unit or cultural building?

    Berber Archers - very rare, travelling accross the straight from Africa


    unit Berber Archers exp 0 cost 1245 replenish 0.02 - 0.04 max 2 initial 0 end_year 1236
    unit Berber Archers exp 1 cost 1245 replenish 0.03 - 0.06 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1237 end_year 1390
    unit Berber Archers exp 4 cost 1245 replenish 0.02 - 0.04 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1391


    ;--------------------------- SPEARMEN:


    ;- Berber Spearmen and Pikemen - very rare, travelling accross the straight from Africa


    unit Lamtuna Spearmen exp 0 cost 2075 replenish 0.02 - 0.04 max 2 initial 0 end_year 1236
    unit Lamtuna Spearmen exp 1 cost 2075 replenish 0.03 - 0.06 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1237 end_year 1390
    unit Lamtuna Spearmen exp 4 cost 2075 replenish 0.02 - 0.04 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1391


    A question @Jurand about this:

    At the beginning of the game the mercenary Berber troops do not appear as mercenaries but the others yes, I think it is due to the part of the script that says "initial 0", since if you change to "initial 1", they appear from the beginning of the campaign .
    What is this about? Being 0 shouldn't I start recruiting him from the beginning? In how many turns/years will these berber units appear as mercenaries in southern Italy?
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  9. #29
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: SICILY

    They do not appear because they're rare. I might be also scripted to 1. They should appear every 25-33 turns. They are rare.

  10. #30

    Default Re: SICILY

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    They do not appear because they're rare. I might be also scripted to 1. They should appear every 25-33 turns. They are rare.
    Ook thanks for your response!
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  11. #31

    Default Re: SICILY

    Playing with my Norman-sicilian campaign i noticed that my faction and in general italian faction have too many "spearmen" units, for example in the South of Italy i can recruit all of this spearmen units:
    1.Mercenary spearmen
    2.Norman serjeants
    3.Berber spearmen
    4. Urban spear militia
    5.Spearmen
    6.Spearmen Sergeants

    6 type of spearmen units in Bari region for example...so i think is necesary a rework/review of italian unit roster.

    As a fast solution i would propose remove "Spearmen" , leaving the norman serjeants in force to later be replaced little by little by the spearmen Sergeants, as well as finally adding a regional Italian unit of swordsmen/maces/small axes throughout Italy that replaces as many spearmen units... for example a unit called Spadaccini Comunale, representing the medieval urban communal militias.

    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...r-Papal-States
    Last edited by j.a.luna; July 01, 2023 at 08:04 AM.
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  12. #32

    Default Re: SICILY

    So i start playing Sicily and restart because the Roman uber assassin and i just want to talk about their start.

    They pretty brutal, you start with most region in wrong religion so PO is not secure, only your King is of age which can be benefical as education for your young general start to kick in but for awhile you can only rely on your King and finally Sicily need to secure Napoli and Spoleto quickly.

    Trying to take them by force, at least Napoli with your starting army even if you risking rebellion is an exercise in futility as the army would suffer heavy casualties and that is assuming you win the most important siege in this campaign. In addition again for Napoli, if by next turn you don't siege them they will recruit Miles in a normally infantry/milita based army and make capturing Napoli much more harder.

    Fortunately there is a way, if you siege with only your starting cavalry with your King in charge the enemy will sally out. This massively decrease the battle difficulty and most importantly minimize casualties and give the King good trait for winning victory. The cavalry will take a beating but it's well worth the price.

    Now luring enemy garrison to kill them in open field is nothing new both in MTW2 and in real life(Crusader in Morea) but if i cannot lure the enemy garrison in Sicily start, their start would be much harder and slower to move away from starting phase.

  13. #33

    Default Re: SICILY

    So is there any mechanism to make Sicily more important despite having so few provinces? I hate to bring it back to England but they get York, Lincoln, Norwich, Bristol, and London. That's 5 provinces with a population about 3.7 million a few generations after the start of the mod, while Sicily had about 2.5 million at the same time. Even though we're obviously past changing this, I have a hard time imagining Sicily being able to recruit far fewer troops than England. Is there a recruitment boost for certain provinces in this mod or does everyone basically get the same per province? I mostly used England in my previous example because it's the most obvious contrast in terms of provinces vs. medieval population.
    FREE THE NIPPLE!!!

  14. #34
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: SICILY

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaytaninc View Post
    So is there any mechanism to make Sicily more important despite having so few provinces? I hate to bring it back to England but they get York, Lincoln, Norwich, Bristol, and London. That's 5 provinces with a population about 3.7 million a few generations after the start of the mod, while Sicily had about 2.5 million at the same time. Even though we're obviously past changing this, I have a hard time imagining Sicily being able to recruit far fewer troops than England. Is there a recruitment boost for certain provinces in this mod or does everyone basically get the same per province? I mostly used England in my previous example because it's the most obvious contrast in terms of provinces vs. medieval population.
    hardcoded limit of 200 provinces. But even if you'd have more provinces, the mod would be different in scope. it is, what it is.

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