Hamas attacks southern Israel

[mishkin]

Yes, the smart political move as a Republican candidate is to alienate Jews and Republicans in the hope that some of the blue haired underemployed mentally ill youngsters and foreign jihadists who take summer jobs as protestors funded by top Biden donors will toss a mail-in protest vote your way when the weather cools off and they decide their voices have been heard enough.

It’s an incredible missed opportunity, but one I hope Trump will make up for by providing these champions of civil rights the opportunity to return home permanently. What he should really do, though, is prioritize investigation and prosecution of individuals and organizations that have made nationwide riots an American pastime during election year summers of late.

Pro-Palestinian protesters are backed by a surprising source: Biden’s biggest donors

Any argument against those who think that the United States should stop collaborating militarily in the killing of Palestinians or those who think that the organizations (universities) to which they belong should not receive Israeli money? Any argument against boycotting Israel until it stops its policy of violence?

[Coughdrop addict]

Can you imagine the howling outrage from the right if Biden suggested deporting MAGAs to Russia?

...Not that the United States would not benefit hugely from doing so of course. The massive drop in violent crime alone would be worth it. And the MAGAs could be ruled by an iron fisted tyrant just like they've always wanted.

[Legio_Italica]

Any argument against those who think that the United States should stop collaborating militarily in the killing of Palestinians or those who think that the organizations (universities) to which they belong should not receive Israeli money? Any argument against boycotting Israel until it stops its policy of violence?

None that someone who believes Israel’s existence is a crime against humanity and the US is an even bigger imperialist genocidal etc would find compelling. But I will say those demands, ostensibly the collective impetus for the protests, are ironic. In the first place, curbing military support to Israel would not impair the latter’s ability to prosecute the war against Hamas. It would remove most external political constraints the IDF currently has. Best case scenario, blunting their technological or logistical edge would incentivize the use of more available and inherently less precise methods of military force, absent the strings that come with American aid. The idea that Israel has any unique moral or other responsibility to lay down their arms and concede war aims to the far right terrorists who started this war while dug in to civilian population centers, and who want to destroy Israel as their primary objective, is delusional at best.

I couldn’t care less how someone decides to spend their own money, and the right to peaceably assemble in protest is constitutionally protected. All we can say for certain, however, is at least half of people arrested at the more controversial and highest profile student protests are not even students, calling into question whether these kids are even the driving force behind them at all. Many are paid or unpaid professional agitators whose goal is to cause mayhem in pursuit of the well-funded political interests they represent, and it is no exaggeration to call that a national security threat which should be investigated as domestic terrorism, from the rabble rouser all the way up to these “charities” and high profile Democrat Party operatives who fund/manage them.

[PointOfViewGun]

None that someone who believes Israel’s existence is a crime against humanity and the US is an even bigger imperialist genocidal etc would find compelling. But I will say those demands, ostensibly the collective impetus for the protests, are ironic. In the first place, curbing military support to Israel would not impair the latter’s ability to prosecute the war against Hamas. It would remove most external political constraints the IDF currently has. Best case scenario, blunting their technological or logistical edge would incentivize the use of more available and inherently less precise methods of military force, absent the strings that come with American aid.

This means that Israel was lying when it off handedly threatened to use dumb bombs in Gaza if USA cuts military aid.

The idea that Israel has any unique moral or other responsibility to lay down their arms and concede war aims to the far right terrorists who started this war while dug in to civilian population centers, and who want to destroy Israel as their primary objective, is delusional at best.

Which no one proposed or defended at any point.

I couldn’t care less how someone decides to spend their own money, and the right to peaceably assemble in protest is constitutionally protected. All we can say for certain, however, is at least half of people arrested at the more controversial and highest profile student protests are not even students, calling into question whether these kids are even the driving force behind them at all. Many are paid or unpaid professional agitators whose goal is to cause mayhem in pursuit of the well-funded political interests they represent, and it is no exaggeration to call that a national security threat which should be investigated as domestic terrorism, from the rabble rouser all the way up to these “charities” and high profile Democrat Party operatives who fund/manage them.

The article says that half of those arrested, not half of the participants, were not students. Which Democrat party member funded/managed which protester where and when?

[mishkin]

None that someone who believes Israel’s existence is a crime against humanity and the US is an even bigger imperialist genocidal etc would find compelling. But

Who are these terrifying people, those who are demonstrating on campuses and cities in the United States, France or Spain? Have they prepared a common document where they declare these things?

I will say those demands, ostensibly the collective impetus for the protests, are ironic. In the first place, curbing military support to Israel would not impair the latter’s ability to prosecute the war against Hamas. It would remove most external political constraints the IDF currently has. Best case scenario, blunting their technological or logistical edge would incentivize the use of more available and inherently less precise methods of military force, absent the strings that come with American aid.

They would still kill people even without our higher quality weapons is not a great argument. It is an argument so bad that it serves to justify the sale of weapons to any country, from Russia to Yemen. "Take these weapons, they are better, you will kill a few fewer civilians".

The idea that Israel has any unique moral or other responsibility to lay down their arms and concede war aims to the far right terrorists who started this war while dug in to civilian population centers, and who want to destroy Israel as their primary objective, is delusional at best.

I have no idea what you're talking about, I seem to understand something about someone asking that Israel surrender to Hamas, something that no one here or in Berkeley has proposed.

I couldn’t care less how someone decides to spend their own money, and the right to peaceably assemble in protest is constitutionally protected. All we can say for certain, however, is at least half of people arrested at the more controversial and highest profile student protests are not even students, calling into question whether these kids are even the driving force behind them at all. Many are paid or unpaid professional agitators whose goal is to cause mayhem in pursuit of the well-funded political interests they represent, and it is no exaggeration to call that a national security threat which should be investigated as domestic terrorism, from the rabble rouser all the way up to these “charities” and high profile Democrat Party operatives who fund/manage them.

"Freedom of expression, freedom to donate money to legal organizations, TERRORIsM"

I hope to be here when some liberal/freethinking anarchist points out that the Jewish cultural Marxism is behind the protests against the invasion of Gaza. It's going to be epic. Maybe the moment when TWC finally explodes.

[Legio_Italica]

Have they prepared a common document where they declare these things?

Yes, in some cases.

https://nypost.com/2024/05/12/us-new...und-on-campus/

https://cbsaustin.com/news/nation-wo...udent-protests

In others, chanting “Death to America, death to Israel” may be more straightforward.

https://nypost.com/2024/04/08/us-new...ath-to-israel/

https://www.foxnews.com/us/agitator-...linked-channel

And no, I don’t really care to pivot to #NotAllProtestors. The idea these protestors fundamentally hate Israel and the US is self evident even without the specific examples provided.

They would still kill people even without our higher quality weapons is not a great argument. It is an argument so bad that it serves to justify the sale of weapons to any country, from Russia to Yemen. "Take these weapons, they are better, you will kill a few fewer civilians".

I don’t think the US should support Israel because doing so will lower civilian casualties, although that’s likely true. I want the US to support Israel because it is the morally and strategically correct decision. But as I said, that’s not an argument someone who chants “Death to America, death to Israel” would find compelling. I simply find it ironic their efforts, if successful, would likely cause more civilian casualties, not fewer.

I have no idea what you're talking about, I seem to understand something about someone asking that Israel surrender to Hamas, something that no one here or in Berkeley has proposed.

Protestors don’t want Israel to exist and believe jihadist fighters are holy martyrs with whom they declare solidarity. As I said, this is self evident by now.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/anti-isra...demonstrations

https://thehill.com/opinion/4616964-...clear-message/

"Freedom of expression, freedom to donate money to legal organizations, TERRORIsM"

People who fund and engage in coordinated violence and destruction across the country with the goal of forcing the US government to abandon its support for Israel should investigated as terrorists, yes.

[mishkin]

Lord Thesaurian, you have generalized based on a couple of extreme cases. A few guys in Michigan have shouted "death to Israel and death to the United States" and you wanted to imply that that is the general feeling of the protesters.Someone wrote and disseminated a manifesto at a university and you want to make believe that it is the pro-Palestinian bible. By the way, I see that the NY Post assumes the demonstrations are pro-terrorist, don't try to make me take anything that comes from that media seriously again.

People who fund and engage in coordinated violence and destruction across the country with the goal of forcing the US government to abandon its support for Israel should investigated as terrorists, yes.

Maybe in your desire to silence any dissent you are rushing enormously.

[Legio_Italica]

Lord Thesaurian, you have generalized based on a couple of extreme cases. A few guys in Michigan have shouted "death to Israel and death to the United States" and you wanted to imply that that is the general feeling of the protesters.Someone wrote and disseminated a manifesto at a university and you want to make believe that it is the pro-Palestinian bible. By the way, I see that the NY Post assumes the demonstrations are pro-terrorist, don't try to make me take anything that comes from that media seriously again.

…A response I anticipated in my last post. As I also said, this is not debatable so I won’t, except to acknowledge 2/3 student protesters support Hamas. Hamas is a terror group. People who support terror groups are pro-terrorist.

Overall, 40% of students say they sympathize with Hamas a lot (17%) or a little (24%), while 33% say they don’t at all, and 27% are unsure.
Sympathy for Hamas is higher among those who are supportive of the protests (51% sympathize a lot (23%) or a little (28%)) and particularly those who have engaged in the protests (63% sympathize a lot (33%) or a little (30%)).

https://www.intelligent.com/2-in-3-c...e-hate-speech/

[PointOfViewGun]

This is the page from Lord Thesaurian's NYT article that supposedly say what he claims they say. Not exactly the smoking gun he was banking on.



The pamphlet the CBA article suggest is about 7 months old and does not in any way pass as a common document for the protests as well contrary to what Lord Thesaurian implies.

[Legio_Italica]

I don’t know how posting a screenshot that says Israel’s existence is illegitimate/immoral and protests against it are part of a global anti imperialist struggle indicates that I misrepresented anything. We already know most protestors support Hamas. I provided documentary examples of protestors declaring Israel’s existence is a crime against humanity and the US is an even bigger imperialist genocidal etc, upon request.

[mishkin]

We already know most protestors support Hamas.

Who are "we"?

Do you recognize that you are generalizing based on a few chosen examples or...?

[Legio_Italica]

By definition, documents, survey data and recordings indicating the majority of protesters support Hamas and are openly hostile to the US and Israel do not constitute “a couple extreme cases.” On the contrary, insisting all this is irrelevant after asking for it would be an example of misrepresentation.

[Muizer]

We already know most protestors support Hamas.

There seem to be quite a few who do not actually know themselves that that is what they're doing. They've managed to convince themselves that what has been happening since 7/10 is essentially a completely one-side, deliberate and systematic operation by the IDF against Palestinian civilians with genocide and annexation as the end goal. Calling for a ceasefire seems neutral, but when that is done amidst slogans like 'from the river to the sea' and 'free palestine' it obviously isn't. If it were, we'd be seeing "Hamas out" on the banners as well, as that is unquestionably the most obvious stumbling block.

[Ludicus]

In fact, Israel mission to crush and eliminate Hamas is what it really is: the latest aspect of Israel's settler colonial violence and domination of the Palestinian people in a 75-year-long ethnic cleansing.

S.Africa tells UN court Israel 'genocide' hit 'new and horrific horrific stage'...

..urging judges to order a halt to the Israeli assault on Rafah.
South Africa wants the ICJ to issue three emergency orders -- "provisional measures" in court jargon -- while it rules on the wider accusation that Israel is breaking the 1948 UN Genocide Convention.
First, it wants the court to order Israel to "immediately withdraw and cease its military offensive" in Rafah.
Second, Israel should take "all effective measures" to allow "unimpeded access" to Gaza for humanitarian aid workers, as well as journalists and investigators.
Lastly, Pretoria asked the court to ensure Israel reports back on its measures taken to adhere to the orders.

-----
Mapping pro-Palestine college campus protests around the world.

When I see students today, Palestinian activists, camping at universities all over the world, protesting, engaging in civil disobedience, being arrested by the police, or facing violence and threats like "you'll never find a job," "you know nothing about history," "you're spoiled," it's important not to forget that what they are doing is who they are.
Those who belittle, mock, or threaten this youth and think it will pass off "because it's just a trend" haven't understood that this isn't just what they do, but who they are. Just like it was when those who fought for civil rights in the US or against apartheid in South Africa, even though they weren't the main targets at the time. It's not enough to be not racist; one must be anti-racist, as Angela Davis said.
When it was decided to teach human rights in schools, when it was decided to speak of "never again genocides," of freedom and equality, when it was decided to value Mandela and Luther King, it was not only about doing but also about being.
This youth didn't grow up on their own; they also grew up with the transmission of the struggles of previous generations, but there are always those who think that the freedom and rights they have today just fell from the sky, without struggle, without inconvenience, or even without violence. It's no coincidence that the most conservative and reactionary forces are willing to attack schools and universities.

[PointOfViewGun]

I don’t know how posting a screenshot that says Israel’s existence is illegitimate/immoral and protests against it are part of a global anti imperialist struggle indicates that I misrepresented anything. We already know most protestors support Hamas. I provided documentary examples of protestors declaring Israel’s existence is a crime against humanity and the US is an even bigger imperialist genocidal etc, upon request.

It talks about resisting oppression and occupation. Not much about illegitimacy or immorality of Israel's entire existence. Can you point out exactly which part of it triggers you? You don't really know if most of the protesters support Hamas as a group either. What they support is Palestinian's right to defend themselves in face of Israeli brutality.

[Legio_Italica]

There seem to be quite a few who do not actually know themselves that that is what they're doing. They've managed to convince themselves that what has been happening since 7/10 is essentially a completely one-side, deliberate and systematic operation by the IDF against Palestinian civilians with genocide and annexation as the end goal. Calling for a ceasefire seems neutral, but when that is done amidst slogans like 'from the river to the sea' and 'free palestine' it obviously isn't. If it were, we'd be seeing "Hamas out" on the banners as well, as that is unquestionably the most obvious stumbling block.

I certainly don’t object to the notion these kids are misinformed/naive in a broader sense. Based on survey data, they get their information on the conflict primarily through social media. At the same time, I believe these protesters mean what they say and do when they openly celebrate and advocate for Hamas by name and for intifada more broadly, engaging in coordinated destructive tactics under the guise of moral activism. These are not generic calls for peace or for withdrawal from the Middle East, but in fact for sustained and organized opposition to my country and our allies. There’s also an abundance of evidence confirming outside funding and coordination by political agents, reported by law enforcement and the press.

These people, be they students or professional agitators, want to be taken seriously. They want their violent threats and intimidation to have an obstructive impact on government and society in pursuit of anti-US and anti-Israel political aims. I am proposing to treat the pro-terrorist majority as they have identified themselves: as violent political “revolutionaries” who are hostile to the US and our allies, fighting “in solidarity” with terrorist groups and foreign adversaries who share their contempt for and struggle against us and our national interests from within.

[mishkin]

You base your claim that the majority of pro-Palestinian protesters are pro-Hamas on two anecdotes (and you have used as source Fox News). I had to come here to hear that all of us who support Palestine, from my 87 yo father to the government of my country and many other governments, most european press, all the university students protesting, are pro-terrorists. You don't know how ridiculous you sound outside your bubble. And your alarmism towards "the enemies of the country" and your request to punish them sound exactly like these cries have always sounded.

[Legio_Italica]

You base your claim that the majority of pro-Palestinian protesters are pro-Hamas on two anecdotes (and you have used as source Fox News).

This is the third time you’ve complained about evidence you asked for because it didn’t align with your personal opinion. I would encourage you to re-read post #2528. The attempts to simultaneously defend and dismiss the significance of the protesters for being a little too transparent about their intentions and motives sounds as disingenuous and intellectually bankrupt as it does every other time the far left adopts a pet cause to use as a vehicle for their anti-civilizational “world revolution.” I have no desire to be lectured on the alleged moral imperatives of “native” Arab nationalism by the same political ideologues who consider any shade of nativism a national security threat to be eradicated in their own western countries.

[Ludicus]

I certainly don’t object to the notion these kids are misinformed/naive in a broader sense. I have no desire to be lectured..

Nobody likes to be lectured, but history matters. Who is misinformed? certainly not the "kids"(why some people try to make fool of others?)

A letter to the NYTimes. Signed, among others, by Hannah Arendt and Albert Einstein. Menachem Begin, labeled in 1948 as "fascist" and "terrorist”, became prime minister of Israel 29 years later.
Letter to the New York Times-1948

(…) Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.

Lawrence Davidson is professor of history emeritus at West Chester University in Pennsylvania. He grew up in in a secular Jewish household. Israel’s Imperial Point of View

(...) Part Two — Some Consequences


Thus, during the latest [2012] round of resistance rocket fire from Gaza and the vengeful killing that came from the Israeli side, we heard the following: “We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages destroying all the infrastructure including roads and water” (Eli Yishai, present Deputy Prime Minister);

“There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing. We need to flatten entire neighborhoods … flatten all of Gaza” (journalist Gilad Sharon in the Jerusalem Post);

“There are no innocents in Gaza. Mow them down … kill the Gazans without thought or mercy.” (Michael Ben-Ari, member of the Knesset);

Gaza should be “bombed so hard the population has to flee into Egypt” (Israel Katz, present Minister of Transportation);

Gaza should be “wiped clean with bombs” (Avi Dichter, present Minister of Home Front Defense);

Israeli soldiers must “learn from the Syrians how to slaughter the enemy” (prominent Israeli Rabbi Yaakov Yosef).

Finally, there were the numerous, spontaneous demonstrations of ordinary Israeli citizens, both in the north and south of the country, where could be heard chants and shouts such as “They don’t deserve to live. They need to die. May your children die. Kick out all the Arabs.”

If it wasn’t for the fact that the outside world was watching, there can be little doubt that the famed Israeli armed forces would have been tempted to do all that these ministers, clerics and citizens wished. [Today we know that this statement was wrong. Ultimately, the outside world has not acted to prevent what the ICJ has found to be “probable genocide” in the Gaza war of 2024.]

After Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu agreed to a cease-fire [in 2012], a group of Israeli soldiers showed their frustration by using their bodies to spell out (in Hebrew) the words “Bibi Loser” (Bibi is a nickname for Netanyahu).
It was a pre-arranged photo-op and the picture can now easily be found on the Web. What seems to really irk the Israeli citizenry is not that Bibi killed and maimed too many innocent Palestinian civilians, but rather that he did not kill and maim enough of them to grant Israelis “safety and security.”

Do you get the picture?

hostile to... our allies

Who is Sarah Streyder

Dear Joe Biden: A message on Rafah from US military families

Dear Mr. President: I am a U.S. military spouse, and I am begging you to hold your ground regarding Rafah and demand an end to Israel’s current offensive there.
On March 10th, you referred to an invasion of Rafah in southern Gaza as “a red line.”
...Unfortunately, the moment has come to stand firm in your convictions.

…How can we feel proud of our service commitments to defend allies, ensure regional stability, and prevent terrorism – while at the same time, the allied troops you are asking U.S. service members to support include military units that have been credibly accused of human rights abuses by international humanitarian organizations?

[PointOfViewGun]

Brushing away criticism of lack of evidence as complaining about evidence is not a good argument to have.