"Cockroach" versus Panzers - first tank aces of the Second World War

[Gelgoog]

ya if it werent for the russians, then the poles could have put up a hell of a fight. The germans at this stage really didnt have the whole blitzkreig thing down and maybe the poles would have been able to fight long enough for the expeditionary forces to move in on germany.

[hellheaven1987]

ya if it werent for the russians, then the poles could have put up a hell of a fight. The germans at this stage really didnt have the whole blitzkreig thing down and maybe the poles would have been able to fight long enough for the expeditionary forces to move in on germany.

Na, Allies did not plan any expeditionary force into Poland (mainly because only Danzig could be used to move their force); British and French were not really expected Germany would dare to attack Poland after the their guarantee of indepedance for Poland.

Poland would fall no matter what, just how long the Polish could hold (and that would not change the war too much since British only had four divisions could deploy at 1939; French was too gay to even think about an attack).

[Watchman]

...French was too gay to even think about an attack).

Eh, not really. They actually made a largely symbolic thrust against the German defenses in the West as a gesture of sympathy to the Poles. The main thing was really that they were busy mobilizing, and in any case an offensive war against Germany had been off their planning table since the late Twenties or so (when it became clear the Brits and Americans weren't about to let them have forward bases on German soil, which were necessary as "jumping-off" points if they wanted to link up with their Central European allies).

[Domen123]

Could someone post something about the types of tanks and other AFV that were used by polish army?

Well, the German "line" panzers - III and IV - went through quite a lot of upgrading through the war to keep them battleworthy. The late-war versions were something like ten-twenty tons heavier than the first models, mostly from added armour.

The German tank force at the start of the war was really pretty meh, all things considered.

That's true.

But it is generally said that Polish 7TP light tanks - although not numerous - were better than the German Panzer II tanks.

It is not true certainly.

I mean - they might be better in some aspects, but in conditions of an average battlefield of tank battle - it proved not to be very important and not to have any influence on the result of the combat.

Most of combats between tanks were fought on distances of several hundred metres or shorter.

I know a case, when German Panzer II with 20mm automatic gun (it was during the battle of Tomaszów Lubelski - on 19th of September probably - or on 18th of September, I don't remember the exact date) eliminated Polish 7TP from a distance of around 700 metres...

Of course there is nothing strange in it, considering that Orlik in his "cokroach" eliminated some of those Pz-35(t) which he eliminated during the battle of Sieraków - from a distance of around 600 metres - and his weaponry was very similar to this used in Panzer II tanks.

If it comes to Polish 7TP tank - it was very good, because it was able to eliminate any German tank in 1939, including Panzer IV version C.

But it was also vulnerable to fire of any type of German tank or armoured car, except those equipped only in MGs (so Panzer I and light armoured cars).

So in real - in practice - the winner was the one who hit the enemy first... And Panzer II had got an automatic gun - 7TP not - so rate of fire was even faster in Panzer II - this was certainly an advantage of Panzer II.

In 1940 - as You noticed - it was differently - British infantry tank Matilda or French heavy tank Char B1 Bis had got so strong armours that they were practically impossible to penetrate by bullets from German Panzers.

Also French Renault R-35 and Hotchkiss H-35 had got stronger armours than Polish 7TP, but lower capability of destroying German tanks than Polish 7TP (Polish 7TP and British Vickers E had got better guns for Anti-Tank purposes than French tanks).

In 1939 Poland had got many French Renault R-35, but only several of them were used against the Germans (during only one combat - the battle of Kamionka Strumilowa - which was, by the way, won by the Polish side), because of the Soviet agression.

The majority of them escaped to Romania after some combats against the Soviets or without combat at all.

Also British Vickers E had got better armour than 7TP - Poland had got very few of them in 1939, but they proved to be both efficient (as well as 7TP) and also resistant (certainly more resistant than 7TPs). They were fighting in 10. Motorized Brigade of pulkownik (later general) Stanislav Maczek - which won many combats against the Germans in 1939, and after the Soviet agression withdrawed to Romania with full equipment (it didn't lost any artillery gun during the campaign, it lost only few AT guns, it lost many tanks but those which survived were all evacuated to Romania) and with full combat value.

To summ up - people who say that German Panzer II was a poor tank - are wrong.

In fact Panzer IIs were very good at least during the Polish campaign (even if comparing with the best tanks Poland had), and were still - at least - good at least until the beginning of Fall Barbarossa.

But it is of course a fact that in France they were not able to undertake balanced combat with some types of French and British tanks.

But still their 20mm automatic gun and great speed was their big advantage.

---------------------------------------------

If it comes to tankettes - Poland had got 574 tankettes TKS, TK-3 and TKF in different versions - they were basic and most numerous AFVs of the Polish army -, but only a few dozens of them were equipped with something more than only a single machine gun (German Panzer I was equipped with two MG 34s). Orlik's TKS tankette was among them.

Polish army planned to rearm / equip all tankettes with 20mm automatic guns, but production of these guns was going too slow and before the war Poland didn't manage to do it.

I think that rearming / equipping all tankettes in 20mm automatic guns could have changed much - if only the Poles had have managed to do it before the war.

[Watchman]

I know some of the French tanks had pretty poor guns as far as tank-killing went - low-velocity 45mm - as they were designed for infantry fire support (eg. R35; the R40 version was upgraded to a better long-barrled gun), but their "line" designs like the S35 had high-velocity guns quite capable of taking on anything the Germans wielded.

And then there was the Char B1 series, which gave German tacticians well-founded nightmares long before they had to actually fight the beasts. The BEF's Matilda IIs proved to be almost as troublesome, although not quite as destructive owing to their lighter armament.

Bet you the German commanders were quite unhappy about having to fight those nasties mostly with PzKpfw IIs (which weren't actually supposed to be part of the line of battle anymore, but there wasn't yet enough IIIs and IVs to go around to phase them out) nevermind now the tiny Is, which were really training vehicles by that time.

It's not like the Panzer II was a poor tank or anything, it was just plain too light to rumble with the big boys and wasn't really meant to either. The entire "light tank" concept was really a bit flawed that way; they weren't really cost-effective. 'Course, the even smaller "tankettes" suffered from that and then some, as they didn't even have turrets to help out with the "speed is armour" thing...

Then again, arguably any AFV is better than nothing at all, if only for infantry support against MG nests and suchlike.

[Domen123]

Orlik's victories (kills) during combat of Pociecha (1., 2. and 3.):

By the way - this map was made by plutonowy podchorąży Roman Edmund Orlik himself, but most probably after the war - so at least several years later.

It is really impressive how damned exact it is, despite it was made so long after that event:

"gęsty młodnik" - subtitle which can be seen in Orlik's map - is exactly the same type of trees as can be seen in the photos of this destroyed Pz-IV ("gęsty młodnik" = "dense young forest").

A forest road which is marked in Orlik's map can also be clearly seen in all of these photos.

More over:







In my opinion Orlik shot at least one long series or maybe even the whole magazine of his 20mm bullets towards this Panzer IV - probably from a very short distance (all of them hit in the same place, more or less).

It is obvious that after receiving at least several succesfull hits, ammunition inside this Panzer IV exploded. It also burnt out, as can be seen both in the photos and in the map made by Orlik himself - and as is also written in the subtitle below the first photo of this wreck which I posted in this thread.