SSHIP - Original Thread (archived)

[Lifthrasir]

@ Napoleonic, the easiest way to run SSHIP and HURB is to create 2 folders: one for HURB and one for SSHIP. Both are foldered, so it shouldn't be a problem. Regarding features, most of them are already mentioned in the Download Post. Note that we're doing our best to improve our submod presentation; We're aware that it's not perfect but we're working on it.

@ Melooo182, calling the Muslim factions as Saracens is a bit too simplistic from my point of view. The fact that the Western Kingdoms used to call the Muslims as Saracens doesn't change it. On contrary, it confirms it as the Catholics used to consider Muslims as more or less "barbarians". The Muslim societies were more complex and sophisticated than it is described in the "Catholic" books from that period. Also, we're trying to keep the historical name for each faction as much as it is possible. So, vanilla names are not suitable from my point of view.
As already mentioned by Fair Prince, the starting date will probably be postponed a bit for v0.9 (around 1155 AD if I remember correctly) to introduce the historical characters and/or names. That also means that the Great Seljuk Empire will probably disappear and be replaced by the Kwarizmians. Not sure yet how to name them correctly. That's to reflect the beginning of their rising. So the redundancy will be automatically solved.

[Melooo182]

Well "historical name" is a bit tricky phrase, could be the name the history books have for them...or how they really called themselves.
(The biggest example would be the Byzantines, not how they called themselves neither how their neighbours called them.)
I'm sure you meant the later...and that's were I wanted to go with my inquiry, did they called themselves like that or is just how we know them today?

[King-Morgoth]

The Absolute/Constitutional Monarchy building chain is broken, the buildings don't how up anywhere outside of the building browser.



Also it feels. . .odd that pretty much every Catholic and Islamic faction gets the military academy/admirality/banks/brimaristan/etc... but the Romans get a semi-useless mercenary recruitment center(which honestly should have a higher law effect and more western/eastern/etc mercenaries), a nearly useless Ikonic Art building, and Highways(which are awesome). It would help if Siphonatres and Scholarii were available from the beginning, even if it was as a unit that could only be retrained until the council event.

It seems that while the Romans unit roster got a ton of work thrown into it visually and balance-wise, the building roster seems lacking in buildings that aren't useless or nearly so, I get that the Romans were in a state of decline but it just seems overly exaggerated.



Anyway, just a thought but what about making the gallows into an actual building chain, something like Gallows->Prison->Dungeon->???? although obviously with more fitting names.

Unless there's an engine limitation/historical/game balancing reason for it all, in which case ignore what I said and keep up the good work.



Edit: Maybe it's just me but the build times for the armour chain seem too low for the higher levels, they should be more important and the loss of one of the higher level ones should be a serious blow to a factions military might. Maybe increase the cost/build time for everything above blacksmith? Add some negatives to balance out having better armour for your troops? A health penalty? Tax penalty?

Just a thought, since armouries are currently spammable and come with absolutely no drawbacks while the barracks/stables/ranges have at least a major population growth penalty the higher they get.

[Curt2013]

That's at least how it works in theory. Last night I let my PC running an AI testgame, and it went on for 8+ hours until i woke up again without crash. For 95% of the factions, the traits where working well, some had minor errors. But still thats pretty good right?

Could you please tell me how to do this? Looking forward to next update, keep up the great work!

Regards

[Nordom]

@Meloo/Lifthrasir: I like Meloo's line of thought as well. I think more historically correct (in the sense of them actually being called that at the time) names would be better, even if they are a bit more generic/vague. Was it the Almoravid Empire, or the Almoravid Dynasty? Just as it wasn't the Komnenian Empire, but rather the Roman (not Byzantine!) Empire, I think it'd be more suitable to go by whatever the nation was actually called at the time, not what historians have retconned their names into being to separate them from similar predecessors/successors.

@King-Morgoth: Romans are also the only ones able to build Aqueducts, (besides the Papal States). But yeah, they do feel like they're missing a building or two compared to other cultures. (edit:) Although Bath Houses and Public Baths are also suggested to only be able to be built by the Romans, everyone else actually can, too.

In regards to Smiths...I'm not entirely sure what you're on about - I think their importance would have to be increased to warrant treating them as if they're important. Maybe make them a prerequisite to building recruiting buildings? Not sure I'd actually want that, but it's an idea. As it is, they're fairly unimportant, hence their low building times and costs.

[stevietheconquer]

the byzanties,i would like too call them romans,really i do but where they really called this way?
they did not have rome annymore,and mostly there names where in greek,and their armies too?
would rome call them romans in that time?
maybe greek romans,if they where real romans they would have carry on their roman names but they did not,even there are already so much discussions about this that it is not for sure how they call them self our if they where real romans,too call them romans,east romans.

but you can always change their name in your own game as this is easy too do.

[King-Morgoth]

@King-Morgoth: Romans are also the only ones able to build Aqueducts, (besides the Papal States). But yeah, they do feel like they're missing a building or two compared to other cultures. (edit Although Bath Houses and Public Baths are also suggested to only be able to be built by the Romans, everyone else actually can, too.

Yeah but aqueducts are only useful after you get a Huge city, which are a pain to get in the first place.

In regards to Smiths...I'm not entirely sure what you're on about - I think their importance would have to be increased to warrant treating them as if they're important. Maybe make them a prerequisite to building recruiting buildings? Not sure I'd actually want that, but it's an idea. As it is, they're fairly unimportant, hence their low building times and costs.

Just a bit of rambling, I probably could have worded it a bit better but the gist of it is that the blacksmith/armourer/etc... building chain should be important, because at the moment they are not and you can spam them in pretty much every city without a problem, it should be hard to get the high end armour buildings so that they are just as important -if not moreso- than a high end barracks or stables. Having them be of major strategic value at the levell above blacksmith would make the player prioritize what he builds and where, since losing the city it is in would cause his troops to be at a severe disadvantage in terms of armour against the faction who took it and give that faction an advantage from the troops recruited there.

That last bit about the tax/health penalty was me being tired and thinking of drawbacks that the higher levels could have so that spamming them everywhere would cause problems, either with money, population, or plague. I probably should have waited until I wasn't tired to edit the post though, at least it would have been more coherent.

Having them be a prerequisite building for the higher end recruitment buildings would solve some of the problems, but as you said not everyone might want/like it.

[Fair Prince]

the byzanties,i would like too call them romans,really i do but where they really called this way?
they did not have rome annymore,and mostly there names where in greek,and their armies too?
would rome call them romans in that time?
maybe greek romans,if they where real romans they would have carry on their roman names but they did not,even there are already so much discussions about this that it is not for sure how they call them self our if they where real romans,too call them romans,east romans.

Be careful mate, this topic has quite a history around here...

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?378809-Byzantine-or-Roman-Empire

Oh, the memories!

[Lifthrasir]

About Muslim factions' names, here is a link to a document written by J.J. Saunders who was a famous historian: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/saunders.asp
If you're motivated to read it (very long article), it confirms (from my point of view) the names for Fatimids, Abbasids and Rum.

I'm still looking for more sources for the Muslim factions' names.

[Nordom]

the byzanties,i would like too call them romans,really i do but where they really called this way?
they did not have rome annymore,and mostly there names where in greek,and their armies too?
would rome call them romans in that time?
maybe greek romans,if they where real romans they would have carry on their roman names but they did not,even there are already so much discussions about this that it is not for sure how they call them self our if they where real romans,too call them romans,east romans.

but you can always change their name in your own game as this is easy too do.

That's a good line of thought, but the problem is that they were never, ever called Byzantines. Not by themselves, and not by anyone else. It was only sometime after the Empire completely fell that the Greek Romans became known as Byzantines. As far as I know, they always considered themselves the Roman Empire...though they sometimes known, yes, as the Eastern Roman Empire by Europe, (and maybe informally as the Greek Roman Empire - not sure about that one, but it'd make sense).

@King-Morgoth: I don't really see any *other* way to solve it, though, because +1/+2 (rarely +3) armor for units is pretty negligible in the overall scheme of things if you're going to try and attach penalties to the building, (besides maybe a -5% health bonus), which is why they're so unimportant in this mod and virtually almost every other.

@Lifthrasir: The Fatimid Caliphate and Abbasid Caliphate (e: and Rum) are accurate - I don't think there's any argument to be made there. It's the Zengids and the Almoravids, (which were just dynasties), that I'm a little more concerned about. (e: redacted Zengids' bit since I was a bit off - they became independent after the fracturing of the Seljuq Empire around 1150, not close to 1200, the Seljuqs' official fall. Still not sure what else to call them, though. )

Ultimately, I don't think it's *that* important, but something worth thinking about.

[MWY]

@Curt2013: You start a multiplayer hotseat campaign, choose venice. After your turnstart you type "control venice" in the console. Then the AI controls all the factions. If you want to check how the campaign is going, just open the console again and type "control venice" to switch controls again.

@Water supply: I agree with lifth. For now I've switched the aquaeduct building to the water supply chain, since it really makes more sense.

@Faction Names: I personally think it would be cool if we would name the faction names in their own language, making them a bit more unique, f.e. "al-Fāṭimiyyūn" for the fatimids.

@King Morgoth: I guess you're somewhat right. But why would it take longer than 1,5 years to build a blacksmith? its basically one house. I think the fact that armour upgrades cost money aswell already balances the building somewhat. It would be good if heavy armoured units would require some sort of smith level, but not the buildings themselves. Since professional isn't always heavy armoured, you would need to tie the smith level to the unit recruitment itself. Which would be a pretty big task to do.

@Melooo: Faction leaders and heirs: perhaps combine both? So you get "Ri x of scotland". I don't know.

I don't think rumseljuks are redundant. I would love to see bulgaria in this mod aswell, but cutting the rumseljuks isn't really a good idea in my opinion. Since the sejuks themselves would collapse even faster. I don't think the byzantines could be stopped then. And historically, the rumseljuks were pretty important at that time aswell.

@Napoleonic: Dynamic order recruitment is that the teutonic order emerges dynamically when the crusader states are in trouble. The unit recruitment is only possible with a good global standing and non-excommunication.
Yes mostly, the unit recruitment is as you said. Altough we also implemented a more diverse recruitment for cities, giving them some professional units atleast.
Most features are in the 1st page, but as we don't have a seperate submod forum like titanium, we are limited in space.
Otherwise there would obviously be more previews etc..

[Lifthrasir]

You've got exactly my point, Nordom. But regarding Zengids, I don't think we will remoce them. They have been introduced in SSHIP to reflect the dismemberment of the Great Seljuk Empire and because as Imad ad-Din Zengi took Edessa, he was considered as a hero in the Muslim world. One of his sons, Nur ad-Din Mahmud, continued the fight against the crusaders. He was preparing the conquest of Egypt when he died assassinated. What would have happend if he lived longer?

Regarding Almoravids, they have been "replaced" by the Almohads in 1147 AD. As it is planned to pospone the starting date to 1155 AD for v0.9, they will replace the Almoravids and be more accurate. Anyway, Moors is not the correct name as "Moors" was the name originally given to the Muslims from Andalousia. As Almoravids and Almohads were originally from Maghrib, this is more correct.

In a general point of view, most of the sources from that time refer more to the name of the leaders than to the "faction" itself. That's why it makes the name choice quite difficult sometimes.

Regarding Byzance, it's quite complicated. Sometimes it is mentioned as Eastern Roman Empire, sometimes as Byzantine Empire or sometimes just as Roman Empire.

Edit: this is probably the best explanation I've found so far about ERE:

The very name Byzantine illustrates the misconceptions to which the empire's history has often been subject, for its inhabitants would hardly have considered the term appropriate to themselves or to their state. Theirs was, in their view, none other than the Roman Empire, founded shortly before the beginning of the Christian Era by God's grace to unify his people in preparation for the coming of his Son. Proud of that Christian and Roman heritage, convinced that their earthly empire so nearly resembled the heavenly pattern that it could never change, they called themselves Romaioi, or Romans. Modern historians agree with them only in part. The term East Rome accurately described the political unit embracing the Eastern provinces of the old Roman Empire until 476, while there were yet two emperors. The same term may even be used until the last half of the 6th century, as long as men continued to act and think according to patterns not unlike those prevailing in an earlier Roman Empire. During these same centuries, nonetheless, there were changes so profound in their cumulative effect that after the 7th century state and society in the East differed markedly from their earlier forms. In an effort to recognize that distinction, historians traditionally have described the medieval empire as "Byzantine."
The latter term is derived from the name Byzantium, borne by a colony of ancient Greek foundation on the European side of the Bosporus, midway between the Mediterranean and the Black Sea; the city was, by virtue of its location, a natural transit point between Europe and Asia Minor (Anatolia). Re-founded as the "new Rome" by the emperor Constantine in 330, it was endowed by him with the name Constantinople, the city of Constantine. The derivation from Byzantium is suggestive in that it emphasizes a central aspect of Byzantine civilization: the degree to which the empire's administrative and intellectual life found a focus at Constantinople from 330 to 1453, the year of the city's last and unsuccessful defense under the 11th (or 12th) Constantine.

[mortenstef]

Hi again
Just want to say thx for a great mod, loving my Abbasid campaign - its really hard on very hard now Also the units are very much an upgrade

Two things i have noticed so far is that the town between Baghdad and Basra dont give a trait to my generals like fx Bagdad give - Emir of Baghdad, 1 loyalty and + 15% trade. Another thing is that in Mosul (I took from the Zengids) there is a Bathhouse i can build, which n text says "Do not translate. Not meant for this culture".

Kind regards M

[Nordom]

@Lifthrasir: I wasn't advocating for their - or anyone else's - removal. Not at all, especially considering the date shift which will depose of the Great Seljuq Empire, which makes it necessary to distinguish the (former) atabeg provinces even more. The Almohad rulers seem to have claimed the title of "Caliph" - will that make it the Almohad Caliphate? And...with the date change, do you know if the Sultanate of Rum will increase by a territory or two? Right now, they can be immediately wiped out by the Romans, which is kinda lame. Would be cool if they held at least Kayseri in addition to Konya and Angora to start with.

"Sometimes as Byzantine Empire"? If you can find one contemporary source - contemporary being any time during its existence - that says anyone at all called it the "Byzantine" Empire, I would be amazed.

Since Mortenstef mentioned that town whose name I also can't remember not giving a "title" ancillary, I'd also like to point out for future reference that neither does Sinope, (the Roman territory above Konya and Angora).

[Melooo182]

Ah I though it was the zengids that were gonna be removed in favour of the kwarezemians.

@MWY: the idea of ditching the title of King(whatever the language) for the name of the faction he belongs was to not have Regents titled as Kings. I was originally proposing to change the "Faction Leader" tag that is bellow the Name to reflect their real status either as King, Regent or Usurper via using the same code Bishops and Cardinals do to get their tags, however later discovered that's a hardcoded feature and faction leaders can only have 1 tag type .

About Rum (not that kind of rum!), I was more like proposing a merge with Great Seljuks, kinda like the Byzantines are in SS6.4 Late campaign, Instead of of having 3 factions (Trebizond, Nicosia and Epirus) you just has a single Byzantine faction with governors in each of these "subfactions domains", then the player decides which of the branches he favour most or makes them cooperate each to restore them in a single united empire. However since Great Seljuks are gonna be ditched and in place Kwarezemians added back, I guess there's no real point on this...or maybe give Rum some of those territories still held by Grand Seljuks as exclaves.

@Lifthrasir: will read that i'm quite interested in the subject right now hehe

Well i suppose Zengid would do just fine then

In those lines of a "what if Nur ad-Din", I propose including a 18y old general named "Yusuf" or "Yusuf ibn Ayyub" for the Zengid. Also give him a hidden trait with a final level that bestow him the "Salah Ad-Din" epithet, the trait progress only if he becomes a successful general with high chivalry and piety. Of course no guaranty that this Yusuf will become "The Saladin" but hey at least there will be a chance to recreate his feats in some sort of way ...maybe he could get himself adopted and even usurp the Zengid throne .

Or if you really want, an adopted general named "Ayyub" with a 10 y old son "Yusuf", then the hidden Saladin Trait could be forced in by some hereditary trigger

or i could do that as a sub-submod later on xD

[Lifthrasir]

That's an interesting idea about Saladin. I'll keep it in mind.

To be checked for next patch:
- Armenians of Cilicia unit & info cards missing - fixed
- Ancillary & title spelling error for Sinope - fixed
- Ancillary & title missing for Al_Wasit - fixed
- Antioch ancillary pic too large - fixed
- Sives to be changed as Sivas - fixed, also "Tomb of Rûmi" text given to Konya (real location)
- Silver resource in Tabriz to be re-located - fixed, relocated at 420,119 (a bit to the left from previous location)
- Sarkel Province (Cumans capital) has 2 entries for roads in the descr_strat file - fixed by MWY
- Abbasid Pricess is Catholic - fixed by MWY
- Ancillary & title missing for Kernavé - fixed, replaces the former Kaunas ones
- Ancillary & title missing for Goroden - fixed, replaces the former Vilnius ones
- Halberd militia for Pisa and Venice in EDB - fixed
- Persian spearmen for Zengids in EDB - fixed (unit removed for that faction)

Thanks guys for pointing this out.

[Nordom]

421,120 (Tabriz) has a Silver resource, but 421,120 is an invalid position for characters, and thus can't be reached for merchant purposes.

[Lifthrasir]

Many thanks Nordom, I'll check that also (previous post updated to keep a track). + rep for your contribution when I can.

[MWY]

Sarkel is fixed.

Some time ago, I got a small idea about those factions names. Why wouldn't we call them how they were called back then? I think it would give a nice authentic and medieval touch to the factions.

I implemented it yesterday, but it could be taken out again easily.

rum: Saljúqiyán-i Rúm
lithuania: Lietuviai
portugal: Comitatus Portugalliae
georgia: Sak’art’velos Samep’o
serbia: Kneževina Srbija
venice: Respublica Veneta
sicily: Regnum Siciliae
abassids: al-Khiláfah al-‘Abbásíyyah
pisa: Respublica Pisana
denmark: Regnum Daniae
egypt: al-Fátimiyyún
scotland: Rìoghachd na h-Alba
cumans: Desht-i Qipchaq/Kumanlar
turks: Dawlat-i Saljúqián
france: Regnum Franciae
hre: Imperium Romanum
england: Regnum Norman-Anglorum
poland: Regnum Poloniae
byzantium: Basileía ton Rhomaíon
almoravids: Al-Murábitún
novgorod: Novgorodskaya Zemlja
spain: Regnum Legionense et Castellae
hungary: Regnum Hungariae
aragon: Regnum Aragonum
kievan rus: Rus
norway: Norðvegr
jerusalem: Regnum Hierosolimitanum
zengids: Zangiyún
papal states: Status Pontificius
mongols: Mongolyn Ezent Güren

What do you think?

[Navajo Joe]

MWY, An excellent piece of work, yeah why not go for it, its different and looks good as well, +rep