Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

[removeduser_487563287433]

It's been demonstrated countless times nobody knew about Goldman Sachs restructuring of the debt outside of Greece until it was revealed nine years later.

[Braindead Colonel]

ICJ hearings take years. You have months, and even that is thanks to Germany giving them to you.

Months of actual default (greece's debt is still not viable) and crippling austerity, in order to stave off an exit from the Eurozone. What a treat! I'm pretty sure most Greeks have woken up to the fact that this charade is not to their benefit, and just defaulting and returning to a national currency is the way to go if the Euro members insist on imposing the current situation.

As for the reparations, it's more of an issue of having a goverment independent enough to fight for it's country's rights, regardless of whether we get a shiny penny out of it or not. Just taking the bastards* to trial is enough of a victory.

(and by bastards I mean the german goverment, not the german people, who also got shafted with this greece bailout con)

[removeduser_487563287433]

Months of actual default (greece's debt is still not viable) and crippling austerity, in order to stave off an exit from the Eurozone. What a treat! I'm pretty sure most Greeks have woken up to the fact that this charade is not to their benefit, and just defaulting and returning to a national currency is the way to go if the Euro members insist on imposing the current situation.

As for the reparations, it's more of an issue of having a goverment independent enough to fight for it's country's rights, regardless of whether we get a shiny penny out of it or not. Just taking the bastards to trial is enough of a victory.

Um, no, not months of default. You haven't defaulted, again, because of Germany.

Only exceedingly ignorant of Greeks would see a default and ejection from the Eurozone as desirable. It will be even more expensive for the Greek Government to borrow, even if it is able to find lenders. That means it will be forced into effective austerity measures even more brutal than it has to enact now - it simply wont be able to pay for the staff it can currently pay for, the hospitals it can pay for, the welfare it can pay for with much cheaper troika money (debt that some of which was completely free, and forgiven). It means those staff that aren't immediately fired will be paid in IOUs until the Government can mint the new drachma. And of course that new drachma will be almost worthless, at least at first. Potentially great for Greek competition, but really crap if you have to buy anything that originates from outside of Greece. Greece imports food and medicine, by the way. So enjoy that one.

[Braindead Colonel]

Um, no, not months of default. You haven't defaulted, again, because of Germany.

Only exceedingly ignorant of Greeks would see a default and ejection from the Eurozone as desirable. It will be even more expensive for the Greek Government to borrow, even if it is able to find lenders. That means it will be forced into effective austerity measures even more brutal than it has to enact now - it simply wont be able to pay for the staff it can currently pay for, the hospitals it can pay for, the welfare it can pay for with much cheaper troika money (debt that some of which was completely free, and forgiven). It means those staff that aren't immediately fired will be paid in IOUs until the Government can mint the new drachma. And of course that new drachma will be almost worthless, at least at first. Potentially great for Greek competition, but really crap if you have to buy anything that originates from outside of Greece. Greece imports food and medicine, by the way. So enjoy that one.

Greece has a primary surplus, so the entire text of your post is just empty fear-mongering.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Greece has a primary surplus, so the entire text of your post is just empty fear-mongering.

A primary surplus under the austerity measures you just said were crippling, so to maintain that surplus you'll need to maintain the current level of austerity. Think through what you say a little, man.

[Emperor Arcturus Mengsk]

Well, Warhammer: Total War is going to be a pain in the ass to buy with drachma.

[Camlon]

Greece has a primary surplus, so the entire text of your post is just empty fear-mongering.

Correction, greece had a primary surplus. Syriza has sent greece back into recession, so you don't have it anymore.

In addition, some of greece debt is owned by Greek banks and defaulting will crush those banks. Either greece can pay the banks, or people will lose their savings. If the banks crash, then it will lead to a massive drop in tax revenue. In addition you will get no support from the EU leading to a bank run. If EU decide to punish greece for the default the consequences will be even worse.

Hence even with the current austerity, greece will not have a surplus after a default. If defaulting was as easy as Braindead claimed, Greece would have already done it.

[Basil II the B.S]

It's been demonstrated countless times nobody knew about Goldman Sachs restructuring of the debt outside of Greece until it was revealed nine years later.

Just as little was known about the reality of the Greek debt.
It doesn't make them any less innocent. Or anyone else for the matter.

[Ludicus]

If Europe wanted to take responsibility and did not scapegoat Greece.

Heiner Flassbeck, economy analyst and director of the Division on Globalization and Development Strategies at the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, correctly stated that EU/Germany's attempts to promote further debts and increasingly tough austerity measures will only lead to a catastrophic situation,

What is mostly misunderstood is a simple fact that many countries are in a Greek position, so to say: it is not just Greece. People in Germany, in particular, tend to look at Greece as a case sui generis that has nothing to do with other countries, but that is not true. What we have is a huge gap in competitiveness between Germany on the one hand, and Italy, France, Greece, Portugal and Spain on the other hand. This is what it is all about, and the question is what is going to happen to Italy and France later.

That is much more important than the question about Greece... The creditor countries, Germany in particular, insist that the old conditions that had been put upon Greece by the Troika should persist, should go on, should be intensified, so that at the end, Greece would come out like a phoenix from the ashes, recover. But it has not recovered yet: up to now, it’s a disaster(1) It is a catastrophic situation at this moment already, and so it cannot go on.

(1)Paraphrasing Brigadier General Carter Clarke, "when we didn't need to do it, and we knew we didn't need to do it, and they knew that we knew we didn't need to do it, we used them as an experiment for..." austerity measures".

Sure,the analogy (the atomic bomb of austerity) wasn't the best I could have come up with (or is it?) but you know what I mean: I simply couldn't resist. A new beginning and debt restructuring is absolutely necessary.

Greece's Unemployment Rate Unexpectedly Rises

"Unexpectedly", they say.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Just as little was known about the reality of the Greek debt.
It doesn't make them any less innocent. Or anyone else for the matter.

Just allow me to clarify; you're arguing Greece's lying about it's extent of it's debt is the responsibility of other countries because... Actually even in your warped version of history I can't see where you want to go with this...

[Basil II the B.S]

Just allow me to clarify; you're arguing Greece's lying about it's extent of it's debt is the responsibility of other countries because... Actually even in your warped version of history I can't see where you want to go with this...

Yeah then let's just pretend it's a collective fault of Greece and that's it. Personal responsibilities don't count. Actually, everything else doesn't count. It has been working great so far.

[Braindead Colonel]

Correction, greece had a primary surplus. Syriza has sent greece back into recession, so you don't have it anymore.

First of all, Greece has been in recession since 2010, so any mention of "going back" into recession is invalid.
Also, being in recession does not automatically mean you have a primary deficit, so you can't connect the two directly in that way.
The previous government of greece followed austerity measures which caused recession, making it that much harder to generate a primary surplus.
The new goverment's goal is to repeal some of the austerity measures, in order to allow growth, while maintaining a reasonable primary surplus (of 1,5% as opposed to the demanded 4,5% of GDP).

The only question is whether the German government, plus tag-alongs, will stop drinking the "moral self-righteousness" Kool-aid long enough for them to get off the austerity crusade they have embarked on. And if not, I don't expect the eurozone to hold much longer, whether Greece remains in it or not.

In addition, some of greece debt is owned by Greek banks and defaulting will crush those banks. Either greece can pay the banks, or people will lose their savings. If the banks crash, then it will lead to a massive drop in tax revenue. In addition you will get no support from the EU leading to a bank run. If EU decide to punish greece for the default the consequences will be even worse.

Well, actually most people's savings have already been taken by the government, in the form of taxes. As for "being punished" by the EU, well, if that is the EU's mentality, then the sooner out of that unelected-Eurotrash-manned snake pit, then the better. But imo, reason will prevail in the end.

If defaulting was as easy as Braindead claimed, Greece would have already done it.

Up to now, Greece was governed by corrupt politicians, who having partaked in the bribery-extravaganza going on in Greece by certain big cooperations (SIEMENS and others) in the 2000 - 2010 period, were willing to sign anything Germany told them to. There is a reason why the Germans have refused to extradite people involved in such scandals (Chrystophorakos). In light of this, its easy to understand Schauble's frustration, having to deal with independent politicians representing Greece's actual interests, instead of the yes-men he was accustomed to until recently.

[Knight of Heaven]

Correction, greece had a primary surplus. Syriza has sent greece back into recession, so you don't have it anymore.

Weird notion, since the actual program in place, is the very same that has been for previous years.... What you have atm is an extension for 4 months of the previous troika program. And acording to you Syriza didnt get any concesions? So wich is it?

I find it funny for you to blame Syriza for it, when they are in 1 month in goverment. When they actualy didnt do anything yet.

I would say the economy has been behaving in its usual patern. There was no suprises here. Anyone thinking there was actual growth happening is very deluded.

Real economy hasnt been recovering, well not realy. The overall paradigm, is still very bleak, as well future estimates.

Btw i dont think Greece realy had a Surplus at 3 % , wasnt that an estimate for 2015? And we all know Troika, and ND estimates, are always correct right?
Besides...Here as of April last year for example.....

The European Union’s statistics agency Eurostat has said it manipulated data to show that Greece has a primary surplus of 1.5 billion euros when in reality it still runs a deficit, but defended the fudge as a legitimate exception afforded none of the other countries in the bloc. Prime Minister Antonis Samaras touted the primary surplus, even though it failed to account for interest payments on Greece’s debt, the cost of running cities and towns, social security and some military spending. That was key to allowing the government to seek relief from 240 billion euros ($330.7 billion) in debt owed to the Troika of the European Union-International Monetary Fund-European Central Bank (EU-IMF-ECB). Samaras also said he will now return 70 percent of the surplus to low-income pensioners, among the hardest hit by austerity measures he imposed on Troika orders, but a “social dividend” will also go to the military, police and emergency personnel, a core constituency of his New Democracy conservatives. The party faces a stern test in next month’s elections for municipalities and the European Parliament from the major opposition Coalition of the Radical Left (SYRIZA), which is opposed to the terms of the rescue packages. But critics are now questioning the methodology used to determine the primary surplus and whether it was a political tool to help buffer Samaras against SYRIZA, whose leader Alexis Tsipiras said he would revise the Troika deal or renege on the loans if he comes to power. - See more at: http://greece.greekreporter.com/2014....KlN4Wh8N.dpuf

And here i realy didnt see much, or any miracle improvement done by ND and the Troika in the recent past.
http://sdw.ecb.europa.eu/quickview.d...PDF.D0000.CU.E

First of all, Greece has been in recession since 2010, so any mention of "going back" into recession is invalid.

Pretty much, i have no ideia where some people have the nerve to even state that.

The new goverment's goal is to repeal some of the austerity measures, in order to allow growth, while maintaining a reasonable primary surplus (of 1,5% as opposed to the demanded 4,5% of GDP)

4,5% every year was fantasy for any country actualy much less Greece....

[Ludicus]

Things start "heating up",
Athens complains about Schäuble "insult" problem

There was an official complaint from our ambassador in Berlin to the German Foreign Ministry on Tuesday night," Greek Foreign Ministry spokesman Constantinos Koutras said on Thursday.
"It was a complaint after what he (Schäuble) said about Mr. Varoufakis. As a minister of a country that is our friend and our ally, he cannot personally insult a colleague... Koutras did not specify what the alleged insult was".

Varoufakis' eloquent answer,
"Mr. Schaeuble has told me I have lost the trust of the German government, I have told him that I never had it. I have the trust of the Greek people"
-----
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Brainded Colonel

The only question is whether the German government, plus tag-alongs, will stop drinking the "moral self-righteousness" Kool-aid long enough for them to get off the austerity crusade they have embarked on.

Don't count on it. Schauble in denial, " We are on the right path towards leaving the euro crisis behind us"
Sure...
---
---

As for "being punished" by the EU, well, if that is the EU's mentality

It's the German mentality.There is a similarity in the German words for "guilt" and "debt".

(Schaeuble: "It won't be good for Europe if we are too generous with the Greeks")

Read Nietzsche's discussion of the origin of guilt and conscience. A splendid article, here,

Genealogy of Morals: Second Essay, Sections 1-7

...Nietzsche then turns to the concepts of guilt and "bad conscience." He identifies a similarity in the German words for "guilt" and "debt," suggesting that, originally, guilt had nothing to do with accountability or immorality. Punishment was not meted out on the basis of guilt, but simply as a reprisal.

If someone failed to fulfill a promise or pay off a loan they were in debt to the person they let down, and that debt could be balanced by submitting to punishment, cruelty, or torture.

If a creditor could not have the pleasure of getting his money back, he could have the pleasure of harming his debtor. The memory that is necessary to our ability to make promises was thus "burned in": all sorts of cruelty and punishment ensured that we would not forget our promise the next time.

-----
Edit:
Stuart Holland writes,

Joschka Fischer, the former German foreign minister, has been closer to the mark as an historian than Wolfgang Schäuble in claiming that it would be a tragedy if Germany, which twice destroyed Europe in the 20^th century, now were to do the same again through punitive solutions rather than resolve the Eurozone crisis by solidarity.
While claims for "finite solutions" to redeem debt and guilt through the imposition of austerity on national governments risk that Europe, which had been the cradle of democracy, under a new German hegemony, shortly could prove to be its grave"

[Mangalore]

Well the ICJ immunity from jurisdiction ruling is about an Italian court's decision of a Greek case, while the one Paraskeuopoulos is referring to is about a Greek court ruling for the Greek case but either way the minister also states that Germany can appeal the case nevertheless and use the ICJ ruling as a legal argument....
( sorry but it is again in Greek: http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?cat...pubid=64153897 )

I might be wrong but the ICJ used the very scenario of a state using its own court system to sue another country as the basis of rejecting the Greek case based on the fundamental principle of equality of states and hence the inability of one state to judge the other.

Yes, exactly. What I find infuriating is the hypocrisy of our European partners. I think this hypocrisy hurts a lot of people in Greece too. Provides further justification for knee-jerk reactions and exacerbates the problem. Now we are on a downward spiral of accusing each other, raising the tones and further bigotry. Whatever happened to European solidarity? If Europe wanted to take responsibility and did not scapegoat Greece and even worse the Greek people the way it does, I'm sure many-many Greeks would actually be thankful for Europe.

Well, European solidarity gets strained if a country demands more money and other countries who are worse off or have their own problem have to keep helping it after tens of billions of bailout. There are at least two sides to a coin

[Alastor]

Well, European solidarity gets strained if a country demands more money and other countries who are worse off or have their own problem have to keep helping it after tens of billions of bailout. There are at least two sides to a coin

Helping with more loans and a ton of strings called austerity attached? Worse off? Have you seen what this "help" has done to Greeks? No, not really two sides on that coin at all. But then again the lazy, greedy, corrupt Greeks have to be punished, they deserve to pay. There was never any solidarity for Greece in this matter. Not from the very beginning. The increasing racism that targets Greeks all over Europe is telling of that. I was reading an article about the realities of being a Greek in Germany these days, horror stories is the only way I can describe the stories in that article.

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

I'm pretty sure most Greeks have woken up to the fact that this charade is not to their benefit, and just defaulting and returning to a national currency is the way to go if the Euro members insist on imposing the current situation.

Not with SYRIZA in government, though.

The national currency may act as a stimulus for investments and growth, as long as a gradual depreciation takes place within the confines of a tight fiscal and monetary policies that aims at preserving (or rather re-establishing) the primary surplus as well as the surplus in the current account.

SYRIZA, on the other hand, dream of returning to the national currency in order to be able to appoint Maduro-loving old-school Marxists in charge of the printing presses in order to hire everyone and their mother in the public sector and hand out benefits to the rest, thereby not only not adressing, but actually exacerbating all the structural problems of Greek economy and entering a slippery slope towards Venezuela-style inflation and recession (but without the boost from a daily production of 2.5 million oil barrels).

SYRIZA is orchestrating a clash with the EU in order to cast them in the role of the agressors and drum up nationalistic support amongst the masses, when in reality it is Greece that is in the wrong, and much more importantly, it is not the debt burden that brought about the "humanitarian crisis" they complain about, but the widespread, state-sanctioned rent-seeking that caused the impoverishment of millions before the state-budget could even be balanced (and it still isn't). This highlights the hypocricy and the purposeful obfuscation of reality behind the rhetoric about Greek people suffering for the sake of bankers, loansharks, Germans, foreign overlords and other they sprout en masse.

SYRIZA have no intention of adressing rent-seeking, the real culprit of Greek plights, not only because their party base and most of themselves are actively engaging in it, as was the case with ND and PASOK, but because they are ideologically endorsing it in principle. They know full well that their own impotence and populistic charlatanism lead to the rapid deterioration of the economy that they now try to blame on Draghi and the ECB, when they refused to indulge their plan for using T-bills as a large-scale source of funding. They know full well that they have costed dearly in terms of opportunity cost, as they know they don't stand a chance of implementing half a reform, let alone raising taxes or making cuts to offset the fiscal hole they created. And they know full well that the vast majority of people are in favour of staying in the Eurozone, which in turn necessitates taking such measures. So their only hope is to cop-out by scapegoating the Europeans and presenting Grexit as a matter of sovereignity and national pride. I am surprised you're falling for this stunt.

Well, actually most people's savings have already been taken by the government, in the form of taxes.

Well, that is false on all accounts. The former government managed to stablise the level of deposits after the PSI and even raise it by 10bn, until, from the moment it became clear SYRIZA was going to get elected, it started going downhill again, a situation that has only deteriorated ever since SYRIZA started acting proud, unflinching, dignified, patriotic etc etc in the negotiations, because they have no plan. The following graph reveals how much faith people really have in their government, and who can blame them for that.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Up to now, Greece was governed by corrupt politicians, who having partaked in the bribery-extravaganza going on in Greece by certain big cooperations (SIEMENS and others) in the 2000 - 2010 period, were willing to sign anything Germany told them to. There is a reason why the Germans have refused to extradite people involved in such scandals (Chrystophorakos). In light of this, its easy to understand Schauble's frustration, having to deal with independent politicians representing Greece's actual interests, instead of the yes-men he was accustomed to until recently.

1) What was the reason behind German judiciary authorities alerting us to the bribery and corruption that Siemens had engaged in Greece in the first place?
2) Why is it that the honest, independent politicians who represent Greece's actual interests have accomlished nothing of substance in the negotiations and have brought back certainly less than what the corrupt yes-men did back in 2012, who at least received a very tangible and sizeable reduction in interest rates for the bonds held by EFSF/ESM?

[alhoon]

Greece goot nothing and let's not forget we are not just talking about raparations but also about a loan in gold that the Greek puppet government was forced to grand the occupation forces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_...r_World_War_II


In 1942, the Greek Central Bank was forced by the occupying Nazi regime to loan 476 million Reichmarks at 0% interest to Nazi Germany. In 1960, Greece accepted 115 million Marks as compensation for Nazi crimes. Nevertheless, past Greek governments have insisted that this was only a down-payment, not complete reparations. In 1990, immediately prior to German reunification, West Germany and East Germany signed the Two Plus Four Agreement with the former Allied countries of the United States, Great Britain, France, and Russia. Since that time, Germany has insisted that all matters concerning World War II, including further reparations to Greece, are closed because Germany officially surrendered to the Allies and to no other parties, including Greece. On Sunday, February 8, 2015, the Greek Prime Minister, Alexis Tsipras appeared in front of the Greek parliament and officially demanded that Germany pay further reparations to Greece.

Guys... unfortunately "Vae Victis".
USA, UK, France and Russia screwed us out of reparations. We lost in the war although we were fighting for the victorious side. Dora Bakogianni, didn't brought up the subject in time. Now it's too late. If we get anything as reparations now, it will be out of Germany's good will.
How much goodwill do you think Germany has for us these days?

Well, Warhammer: Total War is going to be a pain in the ass to buy with drachma.

Is there any reason to believe that a single dragon-sounding howl in the end of the video is TW:WH? It could be something else. It could be a new DLC with a different map in a fantasy world made by CA for CA, instead of WHammer.

And you know fully well, as I do, that less than 1/5 of the Greeks that will play the game, will actually pay for the game.

[Alastor]

2) Why is it that the honest, independent politicians who represent Greece's actual interests have accomlished nothing of substance in the negotiations and have brought back certainly less than what the corrupt yes-men did back in 2012, who at least received a very tangible and sizeable reduction in interest rates for the bonds held by EFSF/ESM?

That is an excellent question.

[alhoon]

1) What was the reason behind German judiciary authorities alerting us to the bribery and corruption that Siemens had engaged in Greece in the first place?

Because some people do their job for their country, and also do our job for our country. Send us lists with tax evaders that get "forgotten" for 2 years, pointing the finger towards ministers found by GERMANS investigating Siemens to be on the take (Tsochatzopoulos) that we say "hey! don't publish the names, we'll get them ourselves" etc.

2) Why is it that the honest, independent politicians who represent Greece's actual interests have accomlished nothing of substance in the negotiations and have brought back certainly less than what the corrupt yes-men did back in 2012, who at least received a very tangible and sizeable reduction in interest rates for the bonds held by EFSF/ESM?

Because they're idiots that insult the very people they beg money for, contrary to Papademos that should be hailed as a national hero for the PSI and haircut.