ISIL War in Iraq and Syria

[Braindead Colonel]

Except for the radar track and numerous past transgressions you mean.

Because if ISIS-benefactor Turkey says so, it must be true, right?

Russia will react coolly to this I bet. The only question is how the rest of NATO responds. A bland statement asking both sides to chill is the only respectable option. The ineffective bombing campaign by NATO members against ISIS this past year is enough of an embarrassment as it is.

[Adar]

ISIS will never be defeated by air raids, anyone claiming otherwise is a delusional moron. You need ground forces and the Kurds do not have the necessary numbers to make a victory happen.

Last time I checked both Assad and Iran got ground forces in Syria. The Russian air force is supposed to support them in their fight against ISIS.

And unlike the Turkmen the ISIS doesn't have much international support.

Because if ISIS-benefactor Turkey says so, it must be true, right?

Russia will react coolly to this I bet. The only question is how the rest of NATO responds. A bland statement asking both sides to chill is the only respectable option. The ineffective bombing campaign by NATO members against ISIS this past year is enough of an embarrassment as it is.

Turkish military evidence + previous Russian border violations make it a very likely scenario. Given the last 5 days of attacks on the Turkmen (who Turkey officially support) it is not exactly hard to guess that Turkey got a strong interest in not letting Russia use it's territory to attack Turkish allies. if they wanted to shoot down Russian aircraft out of sheer spite it would already have happened. Now they picked one off when it violated Turkish territory instead.

[PointOfViewGun]

When the crash site (which is deep in Syrian territory, by the way) is investigated by investigators and the ballistics properly determined.

That would tell how the plane was shot, not where.

[Costin_Razvan]

Last time I checked both Assad and Iran got ground forces in Syria. The Russian air force is supposed to support them in their fight against ISIS.

And unlike the Turkmen the ISIS doesn't have much international support.

So you'd have Syria expose it's last remaining territory to Al-Nusra and their allies, threaten what they have left with collapse for the sake of some idiotic charge against ISIS?

What war exactly are we talking about here? Anyone that believes that the Syrian army can attack ISIS is an idiot. Those "rebels" are the main reason Palmyra fell as they took Idlib and Syria, threatened to lose vital territory, had to retreat it's troops from the east.

[Pielstick]

It's not a wet dream, just a point made that those F-16s Turkey uses to patrol the border region may soon find themselves with a SU-30 firing at their asses.

And as Adar just pointed out those four Su-30s will find 19 squadrons of F-16s bearing down on them.

It's not going to happen.

The Russian AF just ed up and Russia just found out the hard way Turkey really does mean it when it says "don't fly into our airspace". Nobody is going to start WW3 over this, nobody is going to start throwing cruise missiles at eachother and we're not going to see the Russian and Turkish air forces going toe to toe with eachother. What we will see is a lot of diplomacy, de-escalation and the Russians being more careful about where they fly their aircraft.

[Costin_Razvan]

And as Adar just pointed out those four Su-30s will find 19 squadrons of F-16s bearing down on them.

Because Turkey has all it's jets flying on the border. Seriously what is Turkey going to do? Launch a massive air raid against Russia's base in Syria that's defended by top of the line AA ground defenses and long range ship defenses? By all means Turkey go ahead, but don't cry when cruise missiles from Crimea smash into Constantinople.

[Nikitn]

That would tell how the plane was shot, not where.

It would reconstruct the flight path of the airplane, and hence determine where it did or did not fly.

[PointOfViewGun]

Because Turkey has all it's jets flying on the border. Seriously what is Turkey going to do? Launch a massive air raid against Russia's base in Syria that's defended by top of the line AA ground defenses and long range ship defenses? By all means Turkey go ahead, but don't cry when cruise missiles from Crimea smash into Constantinople.

So, you think that in response to shooting down Russian jets in the border Russia would respond by bombing a civilian and historic part of Istanbul free of any military installations?

[Abdülmecid I]

Way ahead of you.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Source

Umm, that's a troll account. No Russian refugees have arrived in Alaska.

[Costin_Razvan]

So, you think that in response to shooting down Russian jets in the border Russia would respond by bombing a civilian and historic part of Istanbul free of any military installations?

I think that if Turkey was suicidal enough to attack Russia's air base in Syria, seriously people learn to read we are after all on a forum, then Russia's response to having hundreds if not thousands of it's soldiers dead would be to bomb the hell out of Turkey and Turkey wouldn't stand a chance.

As for the SU-24, fly SU-30 escorts and maybe take down a couple of Turkish F-16s for Turkey to get the message.

[Principe Alessandro]

Even if I despise Erdogan I think that he has every right to defend the Turkish airspace, maybe Russians should stop playing stupid games with their military aircrafts trying to violate the airspace of NATO countries.

The presumed purpose of such incursions is to gauge the target country’s reactions. Which radar systems and which missile batteries are activated and reveal themselves? Which planes are scrambled from which bases, and how quickly? How loudly and publicly do leaders complain, and how much backing do they get at home and from international allies?

In 2014, Norway scrambled F-16 fighters to intercept Russian warplanes off its coast 74 times, a 27 percent increase from 2013. The Russians did not actually violate Norwegian airspace, but they have done so in the Baltic nations, which were once part of the Soviet Union.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/07/wo...west.html?_r=0

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[Pielstick]

And let's be honest, in essence you support what Turkey did. Stop trying to hide it.

I absolutley support what Turkey did. Repeatedly violate a sovereign nation's airspace with armed combat aircraft when you have been repeatedly warned against doing so - expect to get shot down. Which is incidentally, exactly what I would expect Russia to do if the roles were reversed, and they would likewise have my approval in doing so.

Didn't your parents ever tell you not to play on the motorway?

[PointOfViewGun]

I think that if Turkey was suicidal enough to attack Russia's air base in Syria, seriously people learn to read we are after all on a forum, then Russia's response to having hundreds if not thousands of it's soldiers dead would be to bomb the hell out of Turkey and Turkey wouldn't stand a chance.

But, you really think they would respond by bombing a historic part of Istanbul killing thousand of only civilians?

[Nikitn]

The Russian AF just ed up and Russia just found out the hard way Turkey really does mean it when it says "don't fly into our airspace". Nobody is going to start WW3 over this, nobody is going to start throwing cruise missiles at eachother and we're not going to see the Russian and Turkish air forces going toe to toe with eachother. What we will see is a lot of diplomacy, de-escalation and the Russians being more careful about where they fly their aircraft.

Yet again, considering how absolutely miniscule this alleged violation is, it's plainly retarded to think the Russian air force did anything that would warrant a shoot down.

The main mistake the Russian Airforce did here, was assuming the Turkish leadership was rational.

[Roma_Victrix]

Putin is the Mahdi that was promised, the sword-wielding Azor Ahai who will smite the Daesh White Walkers. At least that's the impression I get from this "Khamenei" news site, where it highlights how Putin gifted a lovely old Quran to Iran amid a general article explaining how foolish the United States is in its dealings with Syria:

The Leader of the Revolution at a meeting with the Russian president mentioned that the Americans’ direct and indirect assistance to ISIS is another glaring weak point in American policies, stating that: The Americans do not have an honorable diplomacy.

I love this sort of propaganda. It's so riveting!

[Adar]

Umm, that's a troll account. No Russian refugees have arrived in Alaska.

The photo is a modified copy of the photoshopped evidence of MH17 that Russian state media presented last year. You can read about the background here.

(as in: this is a really obvious joke directly referencing past behaviour of Russian state media).

So you'd have Syria expose it's last remaining territory to Al-Nusra and their allies, threaten what they have left with collapse for the sake of some idiotic charge against ISIS?

What war exactly are we talking about here? Anyone that believes that the Syrian army can attack ISIS is an idiot. Those "rebels" are the main reason Palmyra fell as they took Idlib and Syria, threatened to lose vital territory, had to retreat it's troops from the east.

Given the poor situation it seem pretty stupid of Russia to go in wave their flag around only to bomb US backed rebels and Turkmen while labelling them as ISIS if they are too weak to even affect the ground war. A pretty lacklustre level of success compared to how NATO could use the Northern Alliance to whack the Taliban and the relatively weak support of the Kurds that have been sufficient to stop ISIS in the east.

Really makes you wonder how poorly it would go if Russia was stupid enough to challenge Turkey or NATO in a fight....

Because Turkey has all it's jets flying on the border. Seriously what is Turkey going to do? Launch a massive air raid against Russia's base in Syria that's defended by top of the line AA ground defenses and long range ship defenses? By all means Turkey go ahead, but don't cry when cruise missiles from Crimea smash into Constantinople.

No, they will just make it very costly for Russia to go anywhere near the Turkish border.

[Braindead Colonel]

Turkish military evidence + previous Russian border violations make it a very likely scenario. Given the last 5 days of attacks on the Turkmen (who Turkey officially support) it is not exactly hard to guess that Turkey got a strong interest in not letting Russia use it's territory to attack Turkish allies. if they wanted to shoot down Russian aircraft out of sheer spite it would already have happened. Now they picked one off when it violated Turkish territory instead.

Turkey has been claiming border violations ever since Russia intervened. The real question is how trustworthy Turkey is. One indication would be its supposed campaign against ISIS which was just a cover for operations against the YPG (Kurdish fighters in Syria, battling against ISIS).

There is also this under-reported gem:

“ISIS is a reality and we have to accept that we cannot eradicate a well-organized and popular establishment such as the Islamic State; therefore I urge my western colleagues to revise their mindset about Islamic political currents, put aside their cynical mentalité and thwart Vladimir Putin's plans to crush Syrian Islamist revolutionaries,” Anadolu News Agency quoted Mr. Fidan as saying on Sunday.
Fidan further added that in order to deal with the vast number of foreign Jihadists craving to travel to Syria, it is imperative that ISIS must set up a consulate or at least a political office in Istanbul. He underlined that it is Turkey’s firm belief to provide medical care for all injured people fleeing Russian ruthless airstrikes regardless of their political or religious affiliation.

http://www.awdnews.com/top-news/turk...out-the-future

So, IMO, NATO would be best served distancing itself from Erdogan's latest tantrum.

[Costin_Razvan]

I absolutley support what Turkey did. Repeatedly violate a sovereign nation's airspace with armed combat aircraft when you have been repeatedly warned against doing so - expect to get shot down. Which is incidentally, exactly what I would expect Russia to do if the roles were reversed, and they would likewise have my approval in doing so.

Didn't your parents ever tell you not to play on the motorway?

Repeatedly? Previous violations were Syrian ones not Russian and you only have Turkey's word that it was an airspace violation, and Turkey's word is not proof.

Incidentally NATO violates Russia's airspace at a frequent rate and vice versa. I don't see the UK shooting down TU-95s and starting WW3 as a result.

A pretty lacklustre level of success compared to how NATO could use the Northern Alliance to whack the Taliban and the relatively weak support of the Kurds that have been sufficient to stop ISIS in the east.

Last I recall Afghanistan didn't have several major regional powers pouring large numbers of weapons and funds to support the Taliban ( Pakistani intelligence being the exception ) and yet the US has failed in Afghanistan.

Want to talk lackluster? How is it to create 3 failed states in Iraq, Libya and Syria with idiotic foreign policies?

Defeating ISIS is MEANINGLESS if you leave Al-Nusra and their allies ( those US backed rebels ) intact in Syria or you somehow think they're above launching terrorist attacks in Europe?

But hey what do 100 dead french mean to a Swede right? Maybe when Al-Qaeda kills a couple hundred of your people you'll realize that the rebel movement is not an ideal choice.

No, they will just make it very costly for Russia to go anywhere near the Turkish border.

Then Russia will move their ships closer to the Turkish border and see who gets to fly there, or you think Turkey's capable of taking the Russia naval group off Syria's coast?

[Nikitn]

I absolutley support what Turkey did. Repeatedly violate a sovereign nation's airspace with armed combat aircraft when you have been repeatedly warned against doing so - expect to get shot down. Which is incidentally, exactly what I would expect Russia to do if the roles were reversed, and they would likewise have my approval in doing so.

Didn't your parents ever tell you not to play on the motorway?

Which means you're using retarded logic. I mean, I guess you also would support the police if they opened fire on angry homeless people, or a a guy shooting and murdering someone who trespassed on his lawn, or Russia bombing the out of Turkey if it turns out the Russian plane wasn't trespassing after all?

There is something called moderation, and proportional response.

[PointOfViewGun]

Turkey has been claiming border violations ever since Russia intervened. The real question is how trustworthy Turkey is. One indication would be its supposed campaign against ISIS which was just a cover for operations against the YPG (Kurdish fighters in Syria, battling against ISIS).

There was no operation against YPG.

Repeatedly? Previous violations were Syrian ones not Russian and you only have Turkey's word that it was an airspace violation, and Turkey's word is not proof.

October 6th:
Syria conflict: Russia violation of Turkish airspace 'no accident'

Russia's violation of Turkish airspace over the weekend "does not look like an accident", Nato has said.

Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said Russia had not provided "any real explanation" of the violation, which "lasted for a long time."
Russia says Saturday's incursion was brief and due to bad weather. It is examining claims of another violation.