The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

[ggsimmonds]

This is not about "They did it too" or whataboutism.
The hypocricy is mindboggling.

Case 1:
We know the Clinton campaign paid a (former?) British intelligence officer to find trash on Trump.
His story (which is absurd BS btw) goes that the Russian intelligence services have dirt on Trump.
To know that, you need sources in the Russian intelligence services.

Case 2:
Some lobbyist for Russian business interests contacts the Trump campaign with a promise to deliver some dirt on Hillary Clinton. She meets campaign officials but no dirt on Clinton is offered.
Instead the lobbyist uses the time to lobby for the business' cause. There is no follow up.
There is no real link between her and the kremlin either. She has an oligarch client who has some frozen bank accounts because of the Magnitzki case and succeeds in having them defrozen for a settlement of a few million dollars.

Case 1 was known several months before case 2. She and her campaign didn't even try to hide it. And no one even blinked an eye about it. Everyone was ok using it to attack Trump.
On the other hand before that, according to CNN, it is "illegal" for us to read what has been published about her. But after that, no one seems to have a problem with the "leaks" that came after that one.

There are two ways to look at this, and you can't have it both ways:
1) It's first and foremost the candidates respective duty to not do stuff that makes them vulnerable and susceptible to blackmail.
OR
2) Illegal information is to be discarded and not even looked at.


Like you, I'm not an American. And I'm absolutely disgusted by both candidates.
But what we see here and they don't even try to hide from us, is a clear cut attempt to exert undue influence US politics by parties who should have none.
I'll quote the BBC:


This is why we see these accusations, and the perfectly timed "leaks" one by one. Most don't have any basis, but that doesn't matter. He's being doxed, the goal is to keep this going for as long as possible, and the Russophobes in both parties can thereby block any attempt whatsoever at stopping a new cold war from happening.
Where these investigations serious and not politicised, they would progress entirely different. And we would have more on them than the meeting between a son and an oligarchs lawyer.
Which is pathetically little, since both party candidates are likely to have had lots and lots of foreign contacts during their election campaign.

If the concern for the independence and democracy of the US were genuine, the very real influence of the Saudi and Israeli lobbies in US politicies would be investigated as well, since their influence is proven, far reaching, severe and sustained.
I find Trump disgusting, so I get where your motivation is coming from, but the problem is far more severe.

This isn't hypocrisy.

Case 1: A republican donor hired an American firm to find dirt on Donald Trump. So that firm outsourced it to a former British intelligence officer. The point here is that Steele did not receive any money from either political party.

Case 2: Trump Jr. receives an email from a third party offering to set up a meeting between him and a lawyer acting on behalf of the Russian government who claims to have dirt on Clinton and is willing to share it due to their support of the Trump campaign.

It does not matter if the lawyer failed to deliver on promises. It does not matter as much if the link between the lawyer and the Kremlin is not as advertised. Trump Jr was told that a representative of the Russian government was offering dirt on Clinton to support his father's campaign. He immediately set up a meeting, requested that two others also attended, and replied he "loved it." That is illegal.

Now that aside, Hillary Clinton is irrelevant to this matter. Continuously citing her at most can lead to one conclusion: Both individuals are unfit for the office of the Presidency. But only one of them holds that office.

[Dr. Croccer]

If the various cases of Hillary Clinton and the machinations and intrigue surrounding the investigations into both presidential candidates are irrelevant to the question of foreign collusion in the presidential election, then there's very little to discuss apart from circlejerking about Drumpf and the latest snippet until the investigation eventually handles it.

Not that that is reasonable in the slightest, as half the accusations of Russian involvement are linked with either alleged victimisation of or private snooping by people involved with the Clinton candidacy. The Benghazi email stuff indeed isn't that relevant, all the other scandals very much are.

[ggsimmonds]

If the various cases of Hillary Clinton and the machinations and intrigue surrounding the investigations into both presidential candidates are irrelevant to the question of foreign collusion in the presidential election, then there's very little to discuss apart from circlejerking about Drumpf and the latest snippet until the investigation eventually handles it.

Not that that is reasonable in the slightest, as half the accusations of Russian involvement are linked with either alleged victimisation of or private snooping by people involved with the Clinton candidacy. The Benghazi email stuff indeed isn't that relevant, all the other scandals very much are.

There may indeed be little to discuss.

But if one of the areas of discussion is armchair lawyer/legal expert, some may argue that thus far there are no examples of wrongdoing by the Trump campaign. Indeed many posters are trying to do just that. But they are mistaken in their belief that pointing out wrongdoings of Clinton and her affiliates serves as a defense of Trump. They are saying Trump has done nothing wrong because Clinton did X. Like citing the Uranium deal. Not only is that not relevant but it makes no logical sense. Trump is innocent because Hillary was one of 6 people who ok'd a uranium deal.

[Ludicus]

This thread isn't about Clinton. She lost, she is not the president

Obviously.

--------
Donald Trump Jr offers the closest thing to a smoking gun | Lawrence ..

Trump Jr also admitted on Tuesday night... he had not told his father about meeting a Russian lawyer because “it was a nothing”.

Poor Trump Jr....it was a huge disappointment.
Now let's just suppose it was important. "Because it was nothing" is the most ridiculous excuse I have ever heard.

[B. W.]

We have a picture of the Russian lawyer sitting next to the American ambassador to Russia.

Answer Telamon's question. What point does this prove?
.

You're claiming collusion between Trump's campaign and Russia. The evidence is becoming pretty clear there was collusion between the DNC (Hillary's campaign) and Russia. The Russian in question had been banned from the US but was allowed in on a special permit provided by an Obama Administration official who is closely tied to Chuck Schumer.

Then days after the 20 minute meeting she is found in a special seating area reserved for special guests just behind a high ranking Democrat official at Congressional hearings. She is also connected with Fusion GPS. A company hired by the DNC.

If there is any collusion here, it is between the Democrats and Russia.

Pretty sure that is factually wrong. The NYT times reported on the emails days before Trump Jr. released them.
.

The e-mails were available because Trump Jr. released them publicly. The NYT did not have them before this.

You guys love to fall back on "but Hillary!"
Hillary's conduct has no bearing on the Trump administration. You guys really need to learn this.

Seems like no matter what comes to light, we can count on three posters here to defend and reflect no matter what.

You people are the ones who have been claiming Russia, Russia, Russia, for the last 8 months and it was Hillary's campaign that started the accusations. So don't say that Hillary and her behavior doesn't have anything to do with this. She is intimately involved because it was her campaign that started the narrative so she could put the blame for her loss somewhere besides herself and the DNC platform.

[Condottiere 40K]

Neither of the boys can measure up to Ivanka.

I got the vibe that the Clinton campaign had a lot of dirt on Trump, but decided not to use it, either because they couldn't prove it, or it wouldn't have made a difference to his base; the High Road strategy.

[The spartan]

With media narrative falling apart and FBI investigation producing nothing but vague assumptions, as smokescreen for obvious waste of time and taxpayer money, it is quite amusing how the only people who buy this conspiracy theory are gullible boomers who watch nothing but CNN and some globalist nuts who would have an axe to grind against Trump no matter what.

Ah, I 'member your narrative of "Russia actually preferred Clinton being elected over Trump". You 'member?

I guess Trump's 4d chess move to discredit both legacy media and treasanous segments of various government agencies worked better then he expected.

Which is why his approval rating is soaring, right? Not at all lower than the public opinion of the FBI. Master strategist right there.

[B. W.]

Neither of the boys can measure up to Ivanka.

I got the vibe that the Clinton campaign had a lot of dirt on Trump, but decided not to use it, either because they couldn't prove it, or it wouldn't have made a difference to his base; the High Road strategy.

I'm sorry, but I couldn't help but laugh when I saw the name Clinton in the same sentence with the words High Road strategy. Do you think Bernie supporters think she took the high road strategy when she stole the DNC nomination from him?

[Acco]

I'd say Trump Jr. was just getting into the learning curb of how to navigate the dirty waters and hazards of the Washington swamp.

Interesting. After the "but Hillary!" reflex, it seems that you are accepting that Trump Jr did wrong.

Surely some sort of meeting led to the very prominent position of a seat by the ambassador's side. Conveniently, nothing has been released on that.

Trump Jr (and Manafort and Kushner) could have been conned into meeting a homeless man for all I care, the identity of the person they met with and the content/outcome of the meeting are secondary issues. The big story is that three of the highest Trump campaign officials (Trump's son, son-in-law, and campaign manager) readily organized a meeting with an individual who was introduced to them as bearing damaging information about an opponent from the Russian government.

And let's not forget that it was Trump Jr. was the person who released news of the meeting and all his e-mail concerning the "matter". He hasn't tried to cover up anything.

No, Trump Jr did not publicly disclose the existence of the meeting, the New York Times did. Also, Trump Jr's story about the meeting shifted as NYT reported more. Finally, Trump Jr published the emails himself shortly after the NYT informed him that it was about to do so.

Reminds me of a similar case a few weeks ago: FIFA commissioned an investigation into corruption in the Qatar World Cup bid but refused to release the final report, eventually a German newspaper got its hands on the report and announced that it would begin reporting on its content, then FIFA suddenly decided it had no problem with releasing the full report on its own and did so.

[B. W.]

Interesting. After the "but Hillary!" reflex, it seems that you are accepting that Trump Jr did wrong.

He did nothing wrong. There is nothing wrong about gathering info on a political appointment, especially if the information is being offered without a quid pro quo agreement. In fact, there would have to be a quid pro quo agreement to make it illegal. That did not happen.

I would say this. He was politically inexperienced and naïve about just how the process works in the swamp and hopefully learned his lesson about accepting a meeting request from a third party who was an acquaintance from prior business dealings. Goldstone, the man who arranged the meeting was pissed when he found out what it had been used for because that was clearly not how it had been presented to him.

Trump Jr (and Manafort and Kushner) could have been conned into meeting a homeless man for all I care, the identity of the person they met with and the content/outcome of the meeting are secondary issues. The big story is that three of the highest Trump campaign officials (Trump's son, son-in-law, and campaign manager) readily organized a meeting with an individual who was introduced to them as bearing damaging information about an opponent from the Russian government.



No, Trump Jr did not publicly disclose the existence of the meeting, the New York Times did. Also, Trump Jr's story about the meeting shifted as NYT reported more. Finally, Trump Jr published the emails himself shortly after the NYT informed him that it was about to do so.

Reminds me of a similar case a few weeks ago: FIFA commissioned an investigation into corruption in the Qatar World Cup bid but refused to release the final report, eventually a German newspaper got its hands on the report and announced that it would begin reporting on its content, then FIFA suddenly decided it had no problem with releasing the full report on its own and did so.

This is completely factually wrong. The only person who had access to Trump Jr.'s e-mail was him and he released the information, including the entire contents of the e-mail exchange.

Further, the DNC not only sought damaging information on Trump, but hired Fusion GPS to create a fake dossier on him and hand it over to the FBI and CIA. Interestingly, there were also republicans (political enemies) who contributed money to make this happen.

There is also considerable evidence that the Ukrainian government worked to help get Hillary elected. It's also inconceivable that they would not have expected something in return. After all, Hillary became quite wealthy making these kinds of arrangements.

[Ludicus]

This is completely factually wrong. The only person who had access to Trump Jr.'s e-mail was him and he released the information,

Doesn't make sense...

New York Times story triggered the release of Trump Jr. emails - Jul ...

The New York Times had already reviewed copies of theemails and asked Trump Jr. to comment when he decided to tweet out pictures ofthe email exchange.
Trump Jr.'s tweets came out, seemingly out of nowhere,at 11 a.m. ET on Tuesday.

By then, the Times was already on the verge ofpublishing. The newsroom already had a full story ready to go, so it hitpublish a few minutes later. A news alert sent by the paper came out at 11:10a.m.
"we were preparing to publish" when TrumpJr. tweeted, the source said. "Don Jr. asked for more time when wecontacted him" for comment, "and then pre-empted us.

There is nothing wrong about gathering info.

Judge by yourself,
Follow Donald Trump Jr.'s Russia Email Trail - Video - NYTimes.com

"...incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.THis is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr.Trump"
Donald Junior replied within minutes:"If it's what you say I love it especially later in the Summer"

------

Trump Junior,

It was literally just a wasted 20 minutes, which was a shame. There was nothing to tell

So sad, there was nothing to tell. Well...blessed is the man who expects nothing, for he shall never be disappointed.

[B. W.]

Doesn't make sense...

New York Times story triggered the release of Trump Jr. emails - Jul ...



------
Trump Junior,


So sad, there was nothing to tell. Well...blessed is the man who expects nothing, for he shall never be disappointed.

That's just too funny. A CNN story verifying a NYT story. Trump Jr. released the e-mails and when he found out the NYT was going to publish a story he asked them to post phone the publishing for 24 hours. In order to prevent the Times from publishing a another "scoop" story he put the e-mail exchange in a series of tweets.

In other words, he got the drop on the Times, which pissed them off. Seems he is getting smarter.

[Ludicus]

I see, more fake news.Well,

when he found out the NYT was going to publish a story he asked them to post phone the publishing for 24 hours. In order to prevent the Times from publishing a another "scoop" story he put the e-mail exchange in a series of tweets.

Doesn't make sense.

Trump Jr. released the e-mails.

Let's suppose that it's true. Why is the embarrassing question.What led him to release the e-mails?

[grinder]

That's just too funny. A CNN story verifying a NYT story. Trump Jr. released the e-mails and when he found out the NYT was going to publish a story he asked them to post phone the publishing for 24 hours. In order to prevent the Times from publishing a another "scoop" story he put the e-mail exchange in a series of tweets.

In other words, he got the drop on the Times, which pissed them off. Seems he is getting smarter.

Post phone eh? Anyway, what happened was that NYT released a bit of information, deliberately gave Trumpland time to lie ("just adoption talks" which by itself raises an eyebrow when you realize that adoption program was apparantly dropped by Russia when the sanctions hit, so... what was the context that came up in exactly, if it did, that is?), then they released the next part, making the lie obvious. It's a tried and true method of journalism. Easily countered by not lying in the first place (and you know, not colluding with foreign powers to influence the election), but I guess they were confident that was not going to happen.

[Acco]

Trump Jr. released the e-mails and when he found out the NYT was going to publish a story he asked them to post phone the publishing for 24 hours. In order to prevent the Times from publishing a another "scoop" story he put the e-mail exchange in a series of tweets.

NYT told Trump Jr that it had a story ready to drop about this email chain and asked for a comment. Trump Jr asked for more time to issue his comment, then released the emails himself. This was a short-term tactic meant to give his daddy and conservative commentators the opportunity to praise his "transparency," nothing more. It's a one-time tactic too, because now media will hesitate to ask him for a comment on big stories, which could leave him blindsided if anything else drops.

He did nothing wrong.

Not getting you here. You said he was dipping his feet into the dirty waters of the swamp, which implies that he was doing something wrong, but I guess it's not wrong because he was just incompetent at it and got bit by a gator instead? Can you clarify?

Goldstone, the man who arranged the meeting was pissed when he found out what it had been used for because that was clearly not how it had been presented to him.

Just to reiterate, it was presented to him as highly sensitive information obtained from the Russian government as "part" of its support for the Trump campaign. Goldstone and Trump Jr organized the meeting under that guise.

Further, the DNC not only sought damaging information on Trump, but hired Fusion GPS to create a fake dossier on him and hand it over to the FBI and CIA. Interestingly, there were also republicans (political enemies) who contributed money to make this happen.

There is also considerable evidence that the Ukrainian government worked to help get Hillary elected. It's also inconceivable that they would not have expected something in return. After all, Hillary became quite wealthy making these kinds of arrangements.

"But Hillary!"

[Admiral Piett]

Far too much time, effort, and money is wasted on this entire thing. It will go nowhere. These things never do. People in these positions are never held accountable and that goes for every Presidential administration we've had since Reagan. Only reason Nixon was gonna be clipped is because an actual arrest and charges were filed for men working for him. All this right here is "anonymous source says this" or former intelligence official says that.

Trump is doing a perfectly fine job of making himself a one-term President on his own and the conservative legislature is increasingly distancing themselves from his platforms. This overhyped Russia thing really only plays into his own narrative of unelected elites working against him.

[Cyclops]

Trump certainly embraces scandal and hugs it to his ample bosom, where it dies for lack of oxygen. By not commenting and tweeting insanely he creates a great cloud that obscures any genuine criticism (of which there's been little anyway).

This is another case of arrogant misdemeanoring by an inexperienced operator. If Clinton was after the straight dope on Trump 9and I am sure she was) you would never know the meeting happened, and anyone who did would be dead.

Trump Jr's problem here is he's tweeted out the lot, and the way it reads is he is soliciting aid from someone identifying themselves as a Russian government source. I doubt she is a Democrat contact but its possible, shady unofficial contacts are part and parcel of diplomacy. If she is then its possible she was a Clinton honeytrap that Trump sensibly avoided but Trump Jr was silly enough to stick his finger in. 4D chess indeed/

Either way another person close to Trump has blundered, and the press is unforgiving given how much he has blasted them and refused to play their game. The way to make sure all the petty factions in Washington act like a monolithic deep state is to give all of them a reason to hate you.

[B. W.]

I see, more fake news.Well,


Doesn't make sense.


Let's suppose that it's true. Why is the embarrassing question.What led him to release the e-mails?

Post phone eh? Anyway, what happened was that NYT released a bit of information, deliberately gave Trumpland time to lie ("just adoption talks" which by itself raises an eyebrow when you realize that adoption program was apparantly dropped by Russia when the sanctions hit, so... what was the context that came up in exactly, if it did, that is?), then they released the next part, making the lie obvious. It's a tried and true method of journalism. Easily countered by not lying in the first place (and you know, not colluding with foreign powers to influence the election), but I guess they were confident that was not going to happen.

NYT told Trump Jr that it had a story ready to drop about this email chain and asked for a comment. Trump Jr asked for more time to issue his comment, then released the emails himself. This was a short-term tactic meant to give his daddy and conservative commentators the opportunity to praise his "transparency," nothing more. It's a one-time tactic too, because now media will hesitate to ask him for a comment on big stories, which could leave him blindsided if anything else drops.



Not getting you here. You said he was dipping his feet into the dirty waters of the swamp, which implies that he was doing something wrong, but I guess it's not wrong because he was just incompetent at it and got bit by a gator instead? Can you clarify?



Just to reiterate, it was presented to him as highly sensitive information obtained from the Russian government as "part" of its support for the Trump campaign. Goldstone and Trump Jr organized the meeting under that guise.



"But Hillary!"

Whew. Alright. I think I see where the confusion lies on yall's understanding.

The NYT never had Trump Jr.'s e-mails. They had never seen them, but they were going to run another "gotcha" story. Trump Jr. beat them to the punch by publishing his e-mail chain which blew up the NYT speculative story before it was published. The NYT was pissed because they had been beat by Jr.

Once again, in politics it is fair game to pursue dirty info on your opponents and the Dems did this with obvious collusion with the Ukraine government.

You can wish all you want that Trump Jr. did something illegal, but that won't make it true.

Jr. did not "organize" the meeting. He merely accepted to see what she had to say and it turned out to be nothing.

[tgoodenow]

So let me get this straight, this Natalia woman is a high level Russian government operative who was in our country to do nefarious actions right?

If she really is that, why would she be "cleared into the United States (till January 2016) by the Justice Department under “extraordinary circumstances” before she embarked on a lobbying campaign last year" by Loretta Lynch but was still in the country six months later with no visa?
http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...met-with-trump

Why was this same secret government agent, given front row seating in the House Foreign Affairs Committee Hearing on Russian Policy five days after meeting Trump Jr?




When William Browder, the main proponent of the Magnitsky Act said:

“There’s zero doubt that she and her U.S. colleagues were lobbying to repeal Magnitsky or at least ensure his name was removed from the global law Congress was considering,”

He's just saying that because he wants to cover for Trump right?

[grinder]

Even if the honey-pot was a fake or a trap or whatever you are alluding to, Pooh-brain jr. still got told she had the intel, and he and his posse still went to the meeting with the intention to get it from her. We know this, because the mails he so brilliantly published (damn right he beat the press to the punch with this one, but his fist landed in his own face), tell us exactly that.
So what's your point here?