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Thread: Hamas attacks southern Israel

  1. #1361
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    He wasn't punished for shooting an unarmed Palestinian. She was punished for having his crime caught on tape.
    You know, I don't believe being filmed is a crime. I'll double check and get back to you on that.
    The "someone" that "terrorist" stabbed was an Israeli soldier within West Bank.
    Are you putting the word terrorist in quotations because you believe that stabbing a soldier somehow means he's not a terrorist?
    "a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."
    Unless you're trying to claim that stabbing someone is a lawful act of violence, the definition of terrorism still very much applies.
    You're basically arguing that all the Israelis that fought against Hamas fighters on October 7th could have been summarily executed.
    Sigh. By saying that he should not have been executed I'm arguing that it's fine to execute people. Impeccable logic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Ancient Macedonians aren't modern greeks.
    You're right, ancient Macedonians were ancient Greeks. You'll never guess who the ancient Greeks became over time (hint: modern Greeks)
    Are you already enlisted or still hiding in your Bunker far from Home?
    My unit has more than enough people right now, I've been told I'm not currently needed. Note that I didn't serve in a combatant unit, I was a comms technician (at Re'im base, which is in charge of the Gaza border), and when doing reserves you continue in the same role.

  2. #1362

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    You're right, ancient Macedonians were ancient Greeks. You'll never guess who the ancient Greeks became over time (hint: modern Greeks)
    Sounds like a backhanded compliment but for whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    My unit has more than enough people right now, I've been told I'm not currently needed. Note that I didn't serve in a combatant unit, I was a comms technician (at Re'im base, which is in charge of the Gaza border), and when doing reserves you continue in the same role.
    If you are not needed then why the IDF is retreating again? Does that mean you can cut of communication into the Gaza Strip? Do you think this makes you less responsible if something guys wrong or is totally not in common with moral values?

  3. #1363
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post

    If you are not needed then why the IDF is retreating again? Does that mean you can cut of communication into the Gaza Strip? Do you think this makes you less responsible if something guys wrong or is totally not in common with moral values?
    Retreating? I think you mean advancing.
    I don't understand your question. I mentioned I'm a comms technician because unlike combatant soldiers, you only need so many comms technicians. I have no moral qualms over what's happening whatsoever.

  4. #1364
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    While this is very vaguely on topic (due to Finkelstein's known views), I was watching this show (afaik the host is also jewish) and was wondering what you think of it, nhyt ^^
    Besides, it helps to ease the tension a bit. I like the humor in it.

    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  5. #1365
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Yeah, I don't have a spare half hour to watch it, sorry If you want to point out any specific timestamps I can comment on them, but otherwise it's a bit too long of a watch for me unfortunately.

  6. #1366
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Well, there's the part with Alan Dershowitz in a restaurant, with OJ, Epstein and other rapists he helped ^^
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  7. #1367

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Are you putting the word terrorist in quotations because you believe that stabbing a soldier somehow means he's not a terrorist?
    "a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."
    Unless you're trying to claim that stabbing someone is a lawful act of violence, the definition of terrorism still very much applies.
    He stabbed a soldier, member of an invading force, within West Bank, a non-Israeli Palestinian territory. It's as non-terrorist as any action gets in the region.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Sigh. By saying that he should not have been executed I'm arguing that it's fine to execute people. Impeccable logic.
    That doesn't take away from your attempt to justify it.
    The Armenian Issue

  8. #1368
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    He stabbed a soldier, member of an invading force, within West Bank, a non-Israeli Palestinian territory. It's as non-terrorist as any action gets in the region.
    Invading force? What did it invade? He was in area C, which both the Israeli government and the palestinian agreed would be under Israeli security control as per the Oslo accords. Soldiers are supposed to be there.
    Was he in uniform when he stabbed him? Any clear indication he isn't a civilian? No? Then he's a terrorist.




    That doesn't take away from your attempt to justify it.
    I'm not justifying it, I'm explaining why the sentence was light. I also said that I agree that the sentence was too light. One would think that the obvious implication is that I believe he should have been punished more severely.

  9. #1369

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Invading force? What did it invade? He was in area C, which both the Israeli government and the palestinian agreed would be under Israeli security control as per the Oslo accords. Soldiers are supposed to be there.
    Was he in uniform when he stabbed him? Any clear indication he isn't a civilian? No? Then he's a terrorist.
    I'm not justifying it, I'm explaining why the sentence was light. I also said that I agree that the sentence was too light. One would think that the obvious implication is that I believe he should have been punished more severely.
    When you think that your state is entitled to the entire region, of course, that's what you would be arguing. Area C is still not Israeli land and it constitutes about 60% of West Bank. The soldier was an occupying force. If you were not justifying his crime you wouldn't be trying to focus on your classification of the guy as a terrorist. What you're trying to argue there is unconscionable.

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  10. #1370

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Invading force? What did it invade?
    Land that had been part of the Dar al-Islam at some point and as such is forever muslim land. Thus:
    2:191 Kill them wherever you come across them and expel them from where they expelled you.
    Fitna is worse than killing. Do not fight them in the Masjid al-Haram until they fight you there.
    But if they do fight you, then kill them. That is how the kuffar should be repaid.
    He was in area C, which both the Israeli government and the palestinian agreed would be under Israeli security control as per the Oslo accords. Soldiers are supposed to be there.
    Allah gives the muminun immunity from treaties:
    9:1 An announcement to those mushrikun you have a general treaty with that Allah and His Messenger are free of them
    Was he in uniform when he stabbed him? Any clear indication he isn't a civilian? No?
    Did he pay the jizya in a state of degradation and humiliation?
    9:29 Fight those of the people who were given the Book who do not have iman in Allah and the Last Day and who
    do not make haram what Allah and His Messenger have made haram and do not take as their deen the deen of Truth,
    until they pay the jizya with their own hands in a state of complete abasement

    If not:
    8:55-57 The worst of animals in the sight of Allah are those who are kafir and do not have iman,
    those with whom you make a treaty and who then break it every time. They have no taqwa.
    So if you come upon such people in war, make a harsh example of them to deter those coming after them
    so that hopefully they will pay heed
    Last edited by Infidel144; December 04, 2023 at 03:08 AM.

  11. #1371
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    When you think that your state is entitled to the entire region, of course, that's what you would be arguing. Area C is still not Israeli land and it constitutes about 60% of West Bank. The soldier was an occupying force.
    Whose territory is occupied? The Palestinian Authority? The body that signed an agreement giving Israel security control of area C?

    If you were not justifying his crime you wouldn't be trying to focus on your classification of the guy as a terrorist. What you're trying to argue there is unconscionable.
    Sigh. As I've clearly implied, multiple times now, Eleor Azaria should have recieved a harsher sentence. If I think he should be punished more severely, don't you think that maybe, just maybe, I'm not justifying his actions? If I were trying to justify him, would I not be arguing that he shouldn't have been punished at all?
    I'm not justifying what he did, he is a murderer. What I am doing, and please pay attention this time, is explaining why the sentence was light.

  12. #1372
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    At least there should be immediate talks/a conference with the West Bank palestinian authority, to get a deal for a two-state solution. Gaza can later join that new state. If such an initiative was taken, I am sure that virtually everyone (everyone who matters too) would be behind it. Instead, sadly, this is further devolving to an Israel vs Hamas endless war, and regrettably reminds one of the ending passage in Animal Farm.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  13. #1373

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Whose territory is occupied? The Palestinian Authority? The body that signed an agreement giving Israel security control of area C?
    Sigh. As I've clearly implied, multiple times now, Eleor Azaria should have recieved a harsher sentence. If I think he should be punished more severely, don't you think that maybe, just maybe, I'm not justifying his actions? If I were trying to justify him, would I not be arguing that he shouldn't have been punished at all?
    I'm not justifying what he did, he is a murderer. What I am doing, and please pay attention this time, is explaining why the sentence was light.
    Altering your argumentation under pressure (as you didn't make the connection you're trying to allude to now) is not exactly a sign of consistency. West Bank is the territory of Palestinians. There is little sense to hide behind Oslo Accords for this when Israel continues to colonize Area C extensively, something they were not given any right to do so. A summary execution by an unrelated party has no buts or ifs anyways.
    The Armenian Issue

  14. #1374
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    At least there should be immediate talks/a conference with the West Bank palestinian authority, to get a deal for a two-state solution. Gaza can later join that new state. If such an initiative was taken, I am sure that virtually everyone (everyone who matters too) would be behind it. Instead, sadly, this is further devolving to an Israel vs Hamas endless war, and regrettably reminds one of the ending passage in Animal Farm.
    That would require the PA to be willing to compromise.
    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Altering your argumentation under pressure (as you didn't make the connection you're trying to allude to now) is not exactly a sign of consistency.
    Huh? What did I alter?
    West Bank is the territory of Palestinians. There is little sense to hide behind Oslo Accords for this when Israel continues to colonize Area C extensively, something they were not given any right to do so.
    You're grasping at straws now.
    A summary execution by an unrelated party has no buts or ifs anyways.
    The buts or ifs are related to the sentence, not the act.

  15. #1375
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    The figures are overwhelming: over 15,000 dead in Gaza (including 6,000 children and 4,000 women); over 10,000 bombs dropped, 15,000 targets attacked in the first 35 days. All the JDAM bombs dropped by Israel on Gaza are manufactured by Boing in the USA.
    ---
    A joint investigation by Magazine +972 and Local Call, corroborated by "The Guardian", explains in detail how the Israeli army's mass murder factory works.

    'A mass assassination factory' an investigation by +972 and Local call reveals

    The Israeli army’s expanded authorization for bombing non-military the loosening of constraints regarding expected civilian casualties, and the use of an artificial intelligence system to generate more potential targets than ever before, appear to have contributed to the destructive nature airstrikes on non-military targets.
    These factors, as described by current and former Israeli intelligence members, have likely played a role in producing what has been one of the deadliest military campaigns against Palestinians since the Nakba of 1948.

    The investigation by +972 and Local Call is based on conversations with seven current and former members of Israel’s intelligence community — including military intelligence and air force personnel who were involved in Israeli operations in the besieged Strip — in addition to Palestinian testimonies, data, and documentation from the Gaza Strip, and official statements by the IDF Spokesperson and other Israeli state institutions.

    Compared to previous Israeli assaults on Gaza, the current war — which Israel has named “Operation Iron Swords,” and which began in the wake of the Hamas-led assault on southern Israel on October 7 — has seen the army significantly expand its bombing of targets that are not distinctly military in nature. These include private residences as well as public buildings, infrastructure, and high-rise blocks, which sources say the army defines as “power targets” (“matarot otzem”).

    The bombing of power targets, according to intelligence sources who had first-hand experience with its application in Gaza in the past, is mainly intended to harm Palestinian civil society: to “create a shock” that, among other things, will reverberate powerfully and “lead civilians to put pressure on Hamas,” as one source put it.
    Several of the sources, who spoke to +972 and Local Call on the condition of anonymity, confirmed that the Israeli army has files on the vast majority of potential targets in Gaza — including homes — which stipulate the number of civilians who are likely to be killed in an attack on a particular target. This number is calculated and known in advance to the army’s intelligence units, who also know shortly before carrying out an attack roughly how many civilians are certain to be killed.

    In one case discussed by the sources, the Israeli military command knowingly approved the killing of hundreds of Palestinian civilians in an attempt to assassinate a single top Hamas military commander. “The numbers increased from dozens of civilian deaths [permitted] as collateral damage as part of an attack on a senior official in previous operations, to hundreds of civilian deaths as collateral damage,” said one source.
    “Nothing happens by accident,” said another source. “When a 3-year-old girl is killed in a home in Gaza, it’s because someone in the army decided it wasn’t a big deal for her to be killed — that it was a price worth paying in order to hit [another] target. We are not Hamas. These are not random rockets. Everything is intentional. We know exactly how much collateral damage there is in every home.”
    According to the investigation, another reason for the large number of targets, and the extensive harm to civilian life in Gaza, is the widespread use of a system called “Habsora” (“The Gospel”), which is largely built on artificial intelligence and can “generate” targets almost automatically at a rate that far exceeds what was previously possible. This AI system, as described by a former intelligence officer, essentially facilitates a “mass assassination factory.”

    According to the sources, the increasing use of AI-based systems like Habsora allows the army to carry out strikes on residential homes where a single Hamas member lives on a massive scale, even those who are junior Hamas operatives. Yet testimonies of Palestinians in Gaza suggest that since October 7, the army has also attacked many private residences where there was no known or apparent member of Hamas or any other militant group residing. Such strikes, sources confirmed to +972 and Local Call, can knowingly kill entire families in the process.

    In the majority of cases, the sources added, military activity is not conducted from these targeted homes. “I remember thinking that it was like if [Palestinian militants] would bomb all the private residences of our families when [Israeli soldiers] go back to sleep at home on the weekend,” one source, who was critical of this practice, recalled.

    Another source said that a senior intelligence officer told his officers after October 7 that the goal was to “kill as many Hamas operatives as possible,” for which the criteria around harming Palestinian civilians were significantly relaxed.
    As such, there are “cases in which we shell based on a wide cellular pinpointing of where the target is, killing civilians. This is often done to save time, instead of doing a little more work to get a more accurate pinpointing,” said the source.
    The result of these policies is the staggering loss of human life in Gaza since October 7
    At the time of writing, around 15,000 Palestinians have been reported killed in the war and counting.


    ‘An excuse to cause destruction’


    “The emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy,” said IDF Spokesperson Daniel Hagari on Oct. 9. The army swiftly translated those declarations into actions.
    According to the sources who spoke to +972 and Local Call, the targets in Gaza that have been struck by Israeli aircraft can be divided roughly into four categories. The first is “tactical targets,” which include standard military targets such as armed militant cells, weapon warehouses, rocket launchers, anti-tank missile launchers, launch pits, mortar bombs, military headquarters, observation posts, and so on.
    The second is “underground targets” — mainly tunnels that Hamas has dug under Gaza’s neighborhoods, including under civilian homes. Aerial strikes on these targets could lead to the collapse of the homes above or near the tunnels.
    The third is “power targets,” which includes high-rises and residential towers in the heart of cities, and public buildings such as universities, banks, and government offices. The idea behind hitting such targets, say three intelligence sources who were involved in planning or conducting strikes on power targets in the past, is that a deliberate attack on Palestinian society will exert “civil pressure” on Hamas.
    The final category consists of “family homes” or “operatives’ homes.” The stated purpose of these attacks is to destroy private residences in order to assassinate a single resident suspected of being a Hamas or Islamic Jihad operative. However, in the current war, Palestinian testimonies assert that some of the families that were killed did not include any operatives from these organizations.
    In the early stages of the current war, the Israeli army appears to have given particular attention to the third and fourth categories of targets. According to statements on Oct. 11 by the IDF Spokesperson, during the first five days of fighting, half of the targets bombed — 1,329 out of a total 2,687 — were deemed power targets.
    We are asked to look for high-rise buildings with half a floor that can be attributed to Hamas,” said one source who took part in previous Israeli offensives in Gaza. “Sometimes it is a militant group’s spokesperson’s office, or a point where operatives meet. I understood that the floor is an excuse that allows the army to cause a lot of destruction in Gaza. That is what they told us.

    “If they would tell the whole world that the [Islamic Jihad] offices on the 10th floor are not important as a target, but that its existence is a justification to bring down the entire high-rise with the aim of pressuring civilian families who live in it in order to put pressure on terrorist organizations, this would itself be seen as terrorism. So they do not say it,” the source added.
    According to intelligence sources, Habsora generates, among other things, automatic recommendations for attacking private residences where people suspected of being Hamas or Islamic Jihad operatives live. Israel then carries out large-scale assassination operations through the heavy shelling of these residential homes.
    One former intelligence officer explained that the Habsora system enables the army to run a “mass assassination factory,” in which the “emphasis is on quantity and not on quality.” A human eye “will go over the targets before each attack, but it need not spend a lot of time on them.” Since Israel estimates that there are approximately 30,000 Hamas members in Gaza, and they are all marked for death, the number of potential targets is enormous.

    In 2019, the Israeli army created a new center aimed at using AI to accelerate target generation. “The Targets Administrative Division is a unit that includes hundreds of officers and soldiers, and is based on AI capabilities,” said former IDF Chief of Staff Aviv Kochavi in an in-depth interview with Ynet earlier this year.

    “This is a machine that, with the help of AI, processes a lot of data better and faster than any human, and translates it into targets for attack,” Kochavi went on. “The result was that in Operation Guardian of the Walls [in 2021], from the moment this machine was activated, it generated 100 new targets every day. You see, in the past there were times in Gaza when we would create 50 targets per year. And here the machine produced 100 targets in one day.”

    We prepare the targets automatically and work according to a checklist,” one of the sources who worked in the new Targets Administrative Division told +972 and Local Call. “It really is like a factory. We work quickly and there is no time to delve deep into the target. The view is that we are judged according to how many targets we manage to generate.”

    A senior military official in charge of the target bank told the Jerusalem Post earlier this year that, thanks to the army’s AI systems, for the first time the military can generate new targets at a faster rate than it attacks. Another source said the drive to automatically generate large numbers of targets is a realization of the Dahiya Doctrine. (1)

    Five different sources confirmed that the number of civilians who may be killed in attacks on private residences is known in advance to Israeli intelligence, and appears clearly in the target file under the category of “collateral damage.”

    “To my understanding, today they can mark all the houses of [any Hamas military operative regardless of rank],” the source continued. “That is a lot of houses. Hamas members who don’t really matter for anything live in homes across Gaza. So they mark the home and bomb the house and kill everyone there.”

    A concerted policy to bomb family homes

    On Oct. 22, the Israeli Air Force bombed the home of the Palestinian journalist Ahmed Alnaouq in the city of Deir al-Balah. Ahmed is a close friend and colleague of mine; four years ago, we founded a Hebrew Facebook page called “Across the Wall,” with the aim of bringing Palestinian voices from Gaza to the Israeli public.
    The strike on Oct. 22 collapsed blocks of concrete onto Ahmed’s entire family, killing his father, brothers, sisters, and all of their children, including babies. Only his 12-year-old niece, Malak, survived and remained in a critical condition, her body covered in burns. A few days later, Malak died.

    Twenty-one members of Ahmed’s family were killed in total, buried under their home. None of them were militants. The youngest was 2 years old; the oldest, his father, was 75. Ahmed, who is currently living in the UK, is now alone out of his entire family.
    Ahmed’s family WhatsApp group is titled “Better Together.” The last message that appears there was sent by him, a little after midnight on the night he lost his family. “Someone let me know that everything is fine,” he wrote. No one answered. He fell asleep, but woke up in a panic at 4 a.m. Drenched in sweat, he checked his phone again. Silence. Then he received a message from a friend with the terrible news.

    Ahmed’s case is common in Gaza these days. In interviews to the press, heads of Gaza hospitals have been echoing the same description: families enter hospitals as a succession of corpses, a child followed by his father followed by his grandfather. The bodies are all covered in dirt and blood.
    According to former Israeli intelligence officers, in many cases in which a private residence is bombed, the goal is the “assassination of Hamas or Jihad operatives,” and such targets are attacked when the operative enters the home. Intelligence researchers know if the operative’s family members or neighbors may also die in an attack, and they know how to calculate how many of them may die. Each of the sources said that these are private homes, where in the majority of cases, no military activity is carried out.
    +972 and Local Call do not have data regarding the number of military operatives who were indeed killed or wounded by aerial strikes on private residences in the current war, but there is ample evidence that, in many cases, none were military or political operatives belonging to Hamas or Islamic Jihad.
    On Oct. 10, the Israeli Air Force bombed an apartment building in Gaza’s Sheikh Radwan neighborhood, killing 40 people, most of them women and children. In one of the shocking videos taken following the attack, people are seen screaming, holding what appears to be a doll pulled from the ruins of the house, and passing it from hand to hand. When the camera zooms in, one can see that it is not a doll, but the body of a baby.
    One of the residents said that 19 members of his family were killed in the strike. Another survivor wrote on Facebook that he only found his son’s shoulder in the rubble. Amnesty investigated the attack and discovered that a Hamas member lived on one of the upper floors of the building, but was not present at the time of the attack.
    The bombing of family homes where Hamas or Islamic Jihad operatives supposedly live likely became a more concerted IDF policy during Operation Protective Edge in 2014. Back then, 606 Palestinians — about a quarter of the civilian deaths during the 51 days of fighting — were members of families whose homes were bombed. A UN report defined it in 2015 as both a potential war crime and “a new pattern” of action that “led to the death of entire families.”

    In 2014, 93 babies were killed as a result of Israeli bombings of family homes, of which 13 were under 1 year old. A month ago, 286 babies aged 1 or under were already identified as having been killed in Gaza, according to a detailed ID list with the ages of victims published by the Gaza Health Ministry on Oct. 26. The number has since likely doubled or tripled.
    However, in many cases, and especially during the current attacks on Gaza, the Israeli army has carried out attacks that struck private residences even when there is no known or clear military target. For example, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists, by Nov. 29, Israel had killed 50 Palestinian journalists in Gaza, some of them in their homes with their families.

    Roshdi Sarraj, 31, a journalist from Gaza who was born in Britain, founded a media outlet in Gaza called “Ain Media.” On Oct. 22, an Israeli bomb struck his parents’ home where he was sleeping, killing him. The journalist Salam Mema similarly died under the ruins of her home after it was bombed; of her three young children, Hadi, 7, died, while Sham, 3, has not yet been found under the rubble. Two other journalists, Duaa Sharaf and Salma Makhaimer, were killed together with their children in their homes.
    Israeli analysts have admitted that the military effectiveness of these kinds of disproportionate aerial attacks is limited. Two weeks after the start of the bombings in Gaza (and before the ground invasion) — after the bodies of 1,903 children, approximately 1,000 women, and 187 elderly men were counted in the Gaza Strip — Israeli commentator Avi Issacharoff tweeted: “As hard as it is to hear, on the 14th day of fighting, it does not appear that the military arm of Hamas has been significantly harmed. The most significant damage to the military leadership is the assassination of [Hamas commander] Ayman Nofal.”


    Fighting human animals’

    Hamas militants regularly operate out of an intricate network of tunnels built under large stretches of the Gaza Strip. These tunnels, as confirmed by the former Israeli intelligence officers we spoke to, also pass under homes and roads. Therefore, Israeli attempts to destroy them with aerial strikes are in many cases likely to lead to the killing of civilians. This may be another reason for the high number of Palestinian families wiped out in the current offensive.
    The intelligence officers interviewed for this article said that the way Hamas designed the tunnel network in Gaza knowingly exploits the civilian population and infrastructure above ground. These claims were also the basis of the media campaign that Israel conducted vis-a-vis the attacks and raids on Al-Shifa Hospital and the tunnels that were discovered under it.
    Israel has also attacked a large number of military targets: armed Hamas operatives, rocket launcher sites, snipers, anti-tank squads, military headquarters, bases, observation posts, and more. From the beginning of the ground invasion, aerial bombardment and heavy artillery fire have been used to provide backup to Israeli troops on the ground. Experts in international law say these targets are legitimate, as long as the strikes comply with the principle of proportionality.

    In response to an enquiry from +972 and Local Call for this article, the IDF Spokesperson stated: “The IDF is committed to international law and acts according to it, and in doing so attacks military targets and does not attack civilians. The terrorist organization Hamas places its operatives and military assets in the heart of the civilian population. Hamas systematically uses the civilian population as a human shield, and conducts combat from civilian buildings, including sensitive sites such as hospitals, mosques, schools, and UN facilities.”
    Intelligence sources who spoke to +972 and Local Call similarly claimed that in many cases Hamas “deliberately endangers the civilian population in Gaza and tries to forcefully prevent civilians from evacuating.” Two sources said that Hamas leaders “understand that Israeli harm to civilians gives them legitimacy in fighting.”

    At the same time, while it’s hard to imagine now, the idea of dropping a one-ton bomb aimed at killing a Hamas operative yet ending up killing an entire family as “collateral damage” was not always so readily accepted by large swathes of Israeli society. In 2002, for example, the Israeli Air Force bombed the home of Salah Mustafa Muhammad Shehade, then the head of the Al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas’ military wing. The bomb killed him, his wife Eman, his 14-year-old daughter Laila, and 14 other civilians, including 11 children. The killing caused a public uproar in both Israel and the world, and Israel was accused of committing war crimes.
    That criticism led to a decision by the Israeli army in 2003 to drop a smaller, quarter-ton bomb on a meeting of top Hamas officials — including the elusive leader of Al-Qassam Brigades, Mohammed Deif — taking place in a residential building in Gaza, despite the fear that it would not be powerful enough to kill them. In his book “To Know Hamas,” veteran Israeli journalist Shlomi Eldar wrote that the decision to use a relatively small bomb was due to the Shehade precedent, and the fear that a one-ton bomb would kill the civilians in the building as well. The attack failed, and the senior military wing officers fled the scene.

    In December 2008, in the first major war that Israel waged against Hamas after it seized power in Gaza, Yoav Gallant, who at the time headed the IDF Southern Command, said that for the first time Israel was “hitting the family homes” of senior Hamas officials with the aim of destroying them, but not harming their families. Gallant emphasized that the homes were attacked after the families were warned by a “knock on the roof,” as well as by phone call, after it was clear that Hamas military activity was taking place inside the house.
    After 2014’s Protective Edge, during which Israel began to systematically strike family homes from the air, human rights groups like B’Tselem collected testimonies from Palestinians who survived these attacks. The survivors said the homes collapsed in on themselves, glass shards cut the bodies of those inside, the debris “smells of blood,” and people were buried alive.
    This deadly policy continues today — thanks in part to the use of destructive weaponry and sophisticated technology like Habsora, but also to a political and security establishment that has loosened the reins on Israel’s military machinery. Fifteen years after insisting that the army was taking pains to minimize civilian harm, Gallant, now Defense Minister, has clearly changed his tune. “We are fighting human animals, and we act accordingly,” he said after October 7.
    (1) The punishing military doctrine that Israel may be using in... Washington Post.


    The Gospel': how Israel uses AI- The Guardian


    The slowly emerging picture of how Israel’s military is harnessing AI comes against a backdrop of growing concerns about the risks posed to civilians as advanced militaries around the world expand the use of complex and opaque automated systems on the battlefield.
    “Other states are going to be watching and learning,” said a former White House security official familiar with the US military’s use of autonomous systems.
    I don't see these words as a formal condemnation of Israel. It's more like, "one of these days, others might start doing what you're doing..."

    The state of Israel knows it can do what it wants when it wants and how it wants. And of course, Israel’s government is easily offended when it is contradicted: the United Nations are anti-Semitic, the ICC prosecutor is anti-Semitic, the International Red Cross is anti-Semitic, the WHO is anti-Semitic, the Spanish Prime Minister supports terrorists.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  16. #1376

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    “Goldie, Goldie, you can’t hide, we charge you with genocide.”

    More evidence of the correctness of clear warner Linda Sarsour. (((They))) are everywhere. (((They))) are even a genocidal falafel shop named Goldie in Philadelphia:

    "A horde of pro-Palestinian protesters spewing hateful threats at a Jewish-owned falafel shop in Philadelphia was put on notice by Pennsylvania’s governor after their “blatant act of antisemitism.”"
    https://nypost.com/2023/12/04/news/p...-antisemitism/

    Pennsylvania governor Josh Shapiro is also one of (((them)), and thus defends the genocide this falafel shop is engaging in...
    Last edited by Infidel144; December 04, 2023 at 03:00 PM.

  17. #1377
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    As we already know, the New York Times report, published three days ago, says Israel knew about Hamas attack over a year in advance. Israel Knew Hamas's Attack Plan More Than a Year Ago

    And now, the…revenge? or is it true? - Israel is investigating if US investors knew of 7 October attack in advance and used information for profit. Israel investigates possible trading knowledge ahead of oct 7 Hamas attack.

    US investors knew, not them, go figure! Ah, the diabolical schemes of the American investors…
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  18. #1378
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    As we already know, the New York Times report, published three days ago, says Israel knew about Hamas attack over a year in advance. Israel Knew Hamas's Attack Plan More Than a Year Ago
    Sort of like how you know that if you're driving a car you might eventually crash. The plan was dismissed as too unrealistic.

  19. #1379
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Is it in your view entirely out of the question that they thought some (smaller scale) attack will take place, but it could be used to sell mass (again smaller scale than now) attacks/"mowing the lawn" etc in Gaza and/or WB?
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  20. #1380
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Is it in your view entirely out of the question that they thought some (smaller scale) attack will take place, but it could be used to sell mass (again smaller scale than now) attacks/"mowing the lawn" etc in Gaza and/or WB?
    Yes, I think that's entirely out of the question. The army would never sacrifice the civilian population (and its own soldiers), and neither would the government (as abhorrant as it is). The IDF lost 3 brigade commanders on that day (the 3rd was confirmed dead a few days ago, was considered kidnapped but his status was unknown up to that point) and at least one battalion commander I know of. These are very, very significant losses.

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