SSHIP - General Discussion

[Dekhatres]

How well have the muslim factions been researched? As far as I can tell, the Abbasids has the strongest unit roster because of the Abna axemen, Mamluks and Tabardiryya (Tabardiryya is the best infantry I have seen; hacking through every other infantry, and even able to defeat heavy mounted knights if being in the correct formation and counter-charging correctly). However, the other muslim factions are weak, I think, in the late period, with only Janissary heavy infantry as the only other competent heavy infantry. Every other unit gets defeated easily by heavily armoured dismounted knights, and mounted knights just ride them down. Even the heavy spearmen are no match against mounted knights.
The European factions get pikemen and halberdiers to counter cavalry in the late era, but didn't the muslim factions also develop effective anti-cavalry techniques?
And shouldn't the Ottomans (Rum?) be the strongest late period muslim faction? After all, the Ottomans were a major power from late 1400s (they conquered Constantinople and managed to expand almost to Vienna). Surely, they must have had a an effective way of dealing with cavalry, or was it the Janissaries that were the key against both dismounted and mounted knights?

eastern factions have by far the best anti cav unit, the horse archers, just shoot the enemy from behind and try to have the high ground, they drop like flies, feels almost like cheating

had a battle the other day where a crusader bodyguard wiped the floor with about 300/350 ahdath/nubian inf in MELEE without charging, will play more and see how things are but for now it's very worrying

[DannyP]

eastern factions have by far the best anti cav unit, the horse archers, just shoot the enemy from behind and try to have the high ground, they drop like flies, feels almost like cheating

had a battle the other day where a crusader bodyguard wiped the floor with about 300/350 ahdath/nubian inf in MELEE without charging, will play more and see how things are but for now it's very worrying

I disagree. Horse archers are very effective, but really only in the early era/high era before soldiers start using full plate armour. Try using the horse archers against Europeans in heavy plate armour. The missiles has an attack value of 4 (or 5), and they really don't bite hard against plate armour. Only crossbows or guns would do, as they pierce armour, but only the Moors have camel gunners. I tried using Mamluk horse archers against Gendarmes, and the Gendarmes only took 2-3 casualties out of all the arrows I shot at them. Then the horse archers got slaughtered in close combat.

Charging in with mamluks (those for close combat) on the other hand, is effective against heaviliy armoured opponents due to their maces. So I think only Tabardariyya and Mamluks are effective against mounted and dismounted knights. The problem is I guess there are so few of them; so muslim factions would've been better off with some kind of pike unit.

[j.a.luna]

Well you need a lot of guys feeding/training the horses. And since they're also almost always better than an infantry unit, I think it fits pretty good.

By the way, the first set of stratmap models is finished. I used Sandy's Models, but adjusted them quite a bit. I don't think the italian city states used the norman mask that much, so I removed it.

Here's the result (from left to right: Leader, Heir, General, Captain):

MWY about you said for italian helmet for strat models i agree except for sicily, they had norman knights and they used the norman helmet with facial mask, i guess they will be the italian exception and also the moors strat models should be different in comparison with rest muslims factions, they had similitudes with iberian crhristians factions and also much berbers troops


NORMAN KNIGHTS

BERBERS TROOPS IN ISLAMIC SPAIN

[Navajo Joe]

Jurcek,

This is follow on from my post in 'Bugs' Section, that you commented on, best post here, otherwise I will have to move it and reprimand myself, but even worse Lifthrasir will be after me!!!!!!! LOL

My Georgian campaign is interesting to say the least, surrounded on three sides by the Mongols and then Rum on my western front. My intention was to capture Ani, but Mongols beat me, pretty sure if I took, would have been war. I took straight away to ally with them and we co-exist, so I headed north westwards, captured a Rus Settlement on the Black Sea. Then after all settled headed southwards to attack Trebezond, unfortunately my General with two Horse Archers Units, got ambushed by Roman Rebels. I almost beat them, an Athanoi, 2 Scoutatoi, 3 Contartoi and 2 Toxatae, they lucked out!!!!

Anyways, putting together another force, will take Trebezond, then attack Rum settlements and meet the Romans heading eastwards, the big question is do i stay my by ally in the Mongols or change sides. The Mongols have left many settlements by me poorly guarded, it is so tempting, but it is way to early, turn 30

Possible Development

As the Georgians are sandwiched to say the least, they need a port at Kutaisi, straight off the bat, they need to be able to move westwards and perhaps a Dromon at the start.

[Boogie Knight]

The Sicilians should have the Norman helmet stratmap models, yes. Personally I'm tempted to give both them and the English the French accent, too; I just wish it was possible to have multiple accents within a faction. French for the nobility and some agents, native for captains and other agents. Alas, 'tis not.

[Dekhatres]

I disagree. Horse archers are very effective, but really only in the early era/high era before soldiers start using full plate armour. Try using the horse archers against Europeans in heavy plate armour. The missiles has an attack value of 4 (or 5), and they really don't bite hard against plate armour. Only crossbows or guns would do, as they pierce armour, but only the Moors have camel gunners. I tried using Mamluk horse archers against Gendarmes, and the Gendarmes only took 2-3 casualties out of all the arrows I shot at them. Then the horse archers got slaughtered in close combat.

Charging in with mamluks (those for close combat) on the other hand, is effective against heaviliy armoured opponents due to their maces. So I think only Tabardariyya and Mamluks are effective against mounted and dismounted knights. The problem is I guess there are so few of them; so muslim factions would've been better off with some kind of pike unit.

yea i probably should have said it's for the early/high era, i thought it's obvious that arrows wouldnt work again plate, anyway there is no unit that can single-handedly defeat Gendarmes or any of that kind of cavalry, not even pikes, i just tried one battle and even european late pikemen get torn to pieces by these guys, historically not even the guns available could penetrate their armor so i dont see how eastern factions are at disadvantage, they truly are the "Ultimate evolution of the knight" as the description says

i have looked into EDB and the replenishment rate for Gendarmes is quite big, 0.5 for france, 0.34 for aragon spain etc, and another 4 turns recruitment turns in EDU, basically 6 turns for france to recruit 1 unit and 7-8 turns for others, tabardariyya have even lower replenishment, europeans can pretty much spam this cav, that sucks

EDIT: it's the Lancers who are the ultimate knight not the Gendarmes, oh well they are more or less on same

[DannyP]

Would you guys say it's cheating to put a lot of spies in neighbouring faction's settlements, use assassins to destroy law/order buildings, make the city rebel and then conquer it with my armies laying in wait? This way I "steal" settlements from my neighbours without waging war.

[jurcek1987]

Navajo Joe,

interesting, I couldn't get an alliance with Mongols but I did take Ani on turn 1 and I guess they weren't too pleased about that. But I found Ani to be invaluable, you can recruit Gasmuli there, which are superb crossbowmen plus they lay stakes which come in handy against the frightening Mongol cavalry. Personally I wouldn't trust them to honour your alliance but I also wouldn't be fooled by their weakly guarded settlements. They might seem an easy prey, but capturing and then holding them is an entirely different matter. They can respond quickly and when they start sending stacks against you, they'll never stop. They can also attack you from the north. If or should I say when the war starts, you'll have a fight on your hands.

[aaronishappy]

Will SSHIP impede turn waits? I was running SS 6.4 with BGRIV and turns were taking 6+ mins, it was too much so I turned it off and used BGRII instead, it was much smoother. Turns took about a minute, though as the game progresses they tend to get a bit longer. I don't mind though, but anything over than 5 minutes is too much!

I have overplayed "vanilla" SS though, I'd like to switch it up a bit.

[jurcek1987]

Will SSHIP impede turn waits? I was running SS 6.4 with BGRIV and turns were taking 6+ mins, it was too much so I turned it off and used BGRII instead, it was much smoother. Turns took about a minute, though as the game progresses they tend to get a bit longer. I don't mind though, but anything over than 5 minutes is too much!

I have overplayed "vanilla" SS though, I'd like to switch it up a bit.

No. The developers took great care to make the game run as smoothly as possible by removing most of non-essential scripts.

[Lifthrasir]

This is follow on from my post in 'Bugs' Section, that you commented on, best post here, otherwise I will have to move it and reprimand myself, but even worse Lifthrasir will be after me!!!!!!! LOL

[umbracatervae777]

Would you guys say it's cheating to put a lot of spies in neighbouring faction's settlements, use assassins to destroy law/order buildings, make the city rebel and then conquer it with my armies laying in wait? This way I "steal" settlements from my neighbours without waging war.

no, that's just art of war

[DannyP]

Does the units from the "High era" become obsolete and disappear once the "Late era" begins? I've noticed in the custom battle section that a lot of the units from the high era are not available in the late era. I hope that is not the case in campaign because there are a lot of good units from the high era that should still be effective later, and factions like the Crusader states would be very lacking in units in the late era if the units from the previous era would no longer be available.

[Dekhatres]

Does the units from the "High era" become obsolete and disappear once the "Late era" begins? I've noticed in the custom battle section that a lot of the units from the high era are not available in the late era. I hope that is not the case in campaign because there are a lot of good units from the high era that should still be effective later, and factions like the Crusader states would be very lacking in units in the late era if the units from the previous era would no longer be available.

yes some units dissapear in late era, but it's not that you lose a unit it's more like a unit evolving into another, like mailed knights evolve into feudal knights then into chivalric knights and then into Gendarmes and Lancers, just to make an example

[MWY]

Yes, sicilians will have norman helmets. As Jaluna quoted, I was talking about the Italian city states. So pisa and venice. Papal states are similar but with a bit of a special model for the pope.

Oh and the really late era is not perfectly adjusted yet.

[Boogie Knight]

Try as I might to improve my reputation as Outremer, I'm getting nowhere. I've been offering to attack factions on behalf of others (Sicily for the Papal States, Georgia for the Romans, etc.) but it's doing nothing for me. That's if I can even get them to accept my offer in the first place - my reputation is at the absolute lowest. Committing actions that lower it, such as exterminating and executing, are the only way to hold gains made in the Middle East. So not only is it difficult to get people to accept my offers of assistance, but when I actually help them out it does nothing for me. I've never broken a single alliance myself.

So once again, I'm going to have to ask: can we please remove the reputation requirement for the Crusader States to recruit Templar and Hospitaller units? See my arguments above for why it's unrealistic, but regardless of all that it simply isn't possible right now from what I can see.

Whether or not you plan to implement this change, can someone tell me what I'd need to edit to make this change to my own game? If it isn't savegame compatible I might just give up, but I'd like to give it a try if it is.

[aaronishappy]

Can you run BGRII and Limited Activities with this? I really miss the army field supply system! If not is there anything similar? In fact is there any little guide or whatever that shows all the changes made in this mod? Maybe I'm just daft but I can't seem to find a general one...

[j.a.luna]

Yes i think that crusades states should be the exception fot can recruit military orders and also a bit the iberian factions due to they are in continue war against infidels moors and they contribute for a holy war and reconquista

[jurcek1987]

Try as I might to improve my reputation as Outremer, I'm getting nowhere. I've been offering to attack factions on behalf of others (Sicily for the Papal States, Georgia for the Romans, etc.) but it's doing nothing for me. That's if I can even get them to accept my offer in the first place - my reputation is at the absolute lowest. Committing actions that lower it, such as exterminating and executing, are the only way to hold gains made in the Middle East. So not only is it difficult to get people to accept my offers of assistance, but when I actually help them out it does nothing for me. I've never broken a single alliance myself.

So once again, I'm going to have to ask: can we please remove the reputation requirement for the Crusader States to recruit Templar and Hospitaller units? See my arguments above for why it's unrealistic, but regardless of all that it simply isn't possible right now from what I can see.

Whether or not you plan to implement this change, can someone tell me what I'd need to edit to make this change to my own game? If it isn't savegame compatible I might just give up, but I'd like to give it a try if it is.

Try this. Crusaders can now recruit order units regardless of their reputation, but only crusaders. I only changed Templars and Hospitallers though, if you want me to change teutons as well, just ask. I tested it and it's save-game compatible but I suggest you backup the original file just in case and report if I made a mistake.

Note to Lift or MWY: there's a tiny mistake in EDB, in all order units, Jerusalem appears twice in brackets, although I'm not sure if this has any effect on the game.

[Boogie Knight]

Try this. Crusaders can now recruit order units regardless of their reputation, but only crusaders. I only changed Templars and Hospitallers though, if you want me to change teutons as well, just ask. I tested it and it's save-game compatible but I suggest you backup the original file just in case and report if I made a mistake.

Note to Lift or MWY: there's a tiny mistake in EDB, in all order units, Jerusalem appears twice in brackets, although I'm not sure if this has any effect on the game.

That is extremely kind, thank you! I'll hopefully be able to test it properly tonight or tomorrow. I'll make a backup of the original as you say, but in the event of future hotfixes and updates should I remove it for them and put the original back?