UNITS ROSTERS discussion

[Lifthrasir]

I think we mostly need to rework some textures, just to bring some variations depending on the factions. For instance, Abbasids units should have mostly black patterns where Fatimids should have mostly white and green patterns.

If we implement the black guards for Fatimids, there's a thread here for ideas.

[achilles-91]

There you go.. Perfectly fitting black guard unit.

[Jurand of Cracow]

My two comments are: too many cooks spoil the broth.
- modding human resources are scarce - who is going to do the requested changes?
- I've played Rum in Broken Crescent and after a while I was absolutely tired of having some 7 HA units which had different names being practically the same. It added just confusion for me, not chrome (well, I also think the whole battle balance and BAI in BrCr is much inferior, but it's a different issue). So if there're similar units as far as statistics is concerned (similar Att/Deff/Armour/Morale/Prices etc.) it should be different for the gameplay - either strategically: one is available only from the castles while the other also from cities - or in the battles (like Spear Militia and Axe Militia - you use them slightly differently).
Don't make new units just for the sake of fancy names or them appearing once in the sources. Good MWY's comment is "Taqlah Axemen: I don't see why you would need/use them when you got tarbardariya."

[j.a.luna]

Yes, i agree with Jurand about BC mod and repeat similar units, for example in the current sship exist a case in Italia about genoese pavise crossbowmen, they are pretty similar to pavise crossbowmen with slightly better stats...i know that this genoese units were famous in all the medieval era(battle of Crecy) and as mercenaries, but hire as mercenaries and not as ''normal unit'' could be aa solution, for example make the useful ''mercenary barrack or building'' into city of Genova and if you conquest Genova or your general is around Genova,Milan,Pisa lands you can hire them as mercenaries units.
For other hand i think that sship need to improve their muslim roster(already know) so have for example foot black guard(achilles units) for fatimied is a start, i think that muslim roster only need some uniques units(maybe some kurdish and afrikan units) more swordman units(too many spearmen for muslims) and improve colours, current textures and models and do more specific different muslim factions(Lifth idea) , abbasied with better infantry, rum with a lot of horse archers, fatimied with more african units,moors with more almohads and andalusian troops...

[j.a.luna]

Talking about mercenaries and new units...is possible add for the next version a re-texture of elephant war unit model? i think that elephant with cannons and fire weapons are very late units in the game, so the best and fast solution is give them a new model with archers/spearmen up the elephant(howdah), this type of units would be almost the most expensive unit in the game and with low ratio of recruitment, and after mongol horde come, near to lands of Merv/Iran/Persia(they were from India)...so sship team could make a new unit or re-texture the fire weapon elephant unit, here some information and images about war elephant in middle ages.

i hope the answer about the two post

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"The Mongols faced war-elephants in Khorazm, Burma, Vietnam and India throughout the 13th century. Despite their unsuccessful campaigns in Vietnam and India, the Mongols defeated the war elephants outside Samarkand by using catapults and mangonels, and in Burma by showering arrows from their famous composite bow"


"The elephants were hired as mercenary troops with their riders. They came from Indian territories under Persian rule. Some historians say that some were from Iran. They were called the Syrian elephant but this may be incorrect.
Persian war elephants were trained by their rider, called a mahout, who would also ride the elephant into battle. The mahouts were of Indian origin, and so were the archers. Training elephants was a difficult and they would be hard to maintain because they ate so much food and water"

Persian elephants were from Indian origin and were probably armed with Indian styled weapons. The men(excluding the driver) sat in a large tower from which troops would fight. The elephant itself would normally be armed with thin plate armour (the Sassanids used chain mail as well as thin plate armour)and would bear a large crenelated wooden howdah on its back.

[Lifthrasir]

You must understand that Muslim factions used pretty much the same units during the game period.

There's only one model of elephant remaining in SSHIP now (with muskets). As already mentioned numerous time, such unit wasn't used a lot during medieval period. There's absolutly no point to add any.

Edit: I forgot to mention that Mongols didn't come by India but by the steppes, further North. There's absolutly no record of the use of elephants by the Mongols.

[j.a.luna]

Wooow!!! look at this impressive and wonderful submod from broken crescent mod!!!this has a lot of improve units roster,banners for selyuks,crusades,romans,ayyubies and others
i didnt know until now and it improve a lot of the units models!
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...vement-Project

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Lifthrasir]

The units of this mod using material from different mods. There's nothing actually new. Materials are just used differently. So, I'm not in favor to use them. Feel free to play BC if you want them
On a side note, even if I understand your approach, SSHIP forum is not a display case for other mods/submods

[MWY]

Those rum horse archers (and some other units) look pretty nice. Altough stylistically a bit different compared to our units. As far as I read, it's not clear yet that he has permission to use them? So there is no way we can use them I think.

[j.a.luna]

@MWY, yes for me also look pretty nice these units, for these i posted in thread new factions units roster,for you would like see them...also if i remember well, modder as bizantineboy,karaislam,linuslinothorax and other give him approvation for free use and with the compliments of great modders as Anthonius, anyway i am waiting the answer of Dole today...
@Lifth,about play other mods and display them, you should know that i am the number one ''fan or follower'' of sship mod,you should not be jealous haha, i would never betray sship and also i played a lot of mods and total war games and only this i like...
for other hand i promoted sship in numerous webs/places as in youtube,social networks, webpages,real life...because i love Historically correct and accurate

[Bitiquinhus]

Does SSHIP have custom models for western peasants/militia ? If not, would it be possible to use paleologos work for Titanium mod ?

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15309098

[Lifthrasir]

@ Bitiquinhus, no, we don't have and it's not planned to do so as we're discussing to remove all peasant models actually.

@j.a.luna, not jealous, just tired to repeat the same things continuously. The submod you link uses units from Karaislam and we have refused not that long ago to use his models.
So I'm wondering what is the point to mention it?
Regarding SSHIP promotion, you did it by yourself. I never asked for it.

[Bitiquinhus]

@ Bitiquinhus, no, we don't have and it's not planned to do so as we're discussing to remove all peasant models actually.

Got it, thanks. I have tried both SSHIP and Titanium I couldn't decide which one suits me better, so I kinda dream about a merge into the definitive Stainless Steel successor, lol. But I completely understand that the two projects have different features and goals.

I forgot to say that this mod is really great and I enjoy playing it. Kudos to you guys !

[Lifthrasir]

Thanks for your kind words

[j.a.luna]

An historical video about one of the most important battle in medieval era, the battle of Navas de Tolosa(1212, Jaén, Spain) the three spanish kingdom and european crusaders united against the new invasion of the Moors
The video is in spanish but the images are so cool and very historicals, i would like see this spanish and moors roster in sship mod
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...&v=SMH3qKOQxXY

[Nikiforos XMike]

There you go.. Perfectly fitting black guard unit.

Are these units downloadable somewhere?

[Dekhatres]

Are these units downloadable somewhere?

i think a submod for the russian mod called bulat steel has them, you wont find it on twc though

[Nikiforos XMike]

thanx

[j.a.luna]

A question about one unit... about naffatun unit... in the game when are they available(event or date)?
Are mercenaries or belong to some faction?
Need some building to recruit them?
I tell this due to in my games i dont see them, same for assasins troops
Both are very useful units but they are historical correct?
I guess that i remember something about the usea of naffatun(medieval hand grenades) in the crusades but i would like know if someone know more about them and how they should use in the game(balanced and historical)
Should they have limited recruit and very expensive to hire and low replaicement how a treasure, similar to greek fire?

[Alavaria]

A question about one unit... about naffatun unit... in the game when are they available(event or date)?
Are mercenaries or belong to some faction?
Need some building to recruit them?

alchemists_lab city requires factions { byzantium, } or factions { northern_european, middle_eastern, eastern_european, timurids, southern_european, } and event_counter CANNONS 1 and building_present_min_level education_university school
{
capability
{
happiness_bonus bonus -1

weapon_missile_gunpowder 1
recruit_pool "Naffatun" 1 0.17 1 0 requires factions { egypt, kwarezm, rum, }
recruit_pool "Siphonatores" 0 0.05 0.4 0 requires factions { byzantium, }

event historic CANNONS
date 150 175

So turn 300 to 350

Just requires a large city, so if you happen to uplift a bunch of settlements to large city you can spam them