Iraq looks too arid! It's not a desert. More greenery, please

[bigdaddy1204]

I Also saw that Lift posted something about the Nile Delta but couldn't really see what needed to be changed.

Ahah! This reminds me of Broken Crescent - the river Nile south of Aswan was way off where it should have been. The correct course was visible on the mini map, but it didn't match where the river was actually placed.

Returning to SSHIP and Titanium, I wonder if it might be worth discussing Iran? Melooo, do you have any screenshots?

[Lifthrasir]

Iran should be a bit greener as well, at least beside the rivers.

Regarding the Nil delta, 2 major lacs lakes or lagoons are missing: one beside Alexandria and one beside Damietta. Regarding the delta itself, it's quite difficult to find good sources about its form. Depending on the said sources, the delta is represented differently.

[bigdaddy1204]

Iran should be a bit greener as well, at least beside the rivers.

I think so too. Melooo did a good job by removing the desert area in the Khuzestan region because "large and permanent rivers flow over the entire territory [of Khuzestan province] contributing to the fertility of the land."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khuzestan_Province

Is there a way to model semi-arid regions of scrub vegetation and grassland in this game? Could be useful for touching up other parts of Iran.

Regarding the Nil delta, 2 major lacs or lagoon are missing

Le mot en Anglais est 'lake'. Plural = 'lakes'.

[bigdaddy1204]

@Melooo, I had an idea. On your map, I noticed there is a small island that has good colours for a hot country like Iraq. I have circled it in red.

I like the location of your green areas - I think you have it correct. And your Zagros mountains area is perfect. Overall, this map is very good and I like it a lot. But I felt the dark green area [on the Euphrates river edge] is still maybe a bit extreme - Iraq is not Scotland

But the red circle area seemed about right. What do you think about this? Could the river banks (for example, south side of the Euphrates (at the bottom left) be a bit more like the island? What do you think about this idea?

[Lifthrasir]

That's what happens when you write too fast without checking I've corrected my mistake. Thanks for that.

Khuzestan is the area you have already asked to be more greeny or am I wrong?

[Melooo182]

But that's the area that was a huge collections of swamps back in the middle ages, remember that map I posted a while back
I could desaturate a bit the green in swamp texture for that area though

[bigdaddy1204]

That's what happens when you write too fast without checking I've corrected my mistake. Thanks for that.

Khuzestan is the area you have already asked to be more greeny or am I wrong?

Yes, Khuzestan is basically perfect in Melooo's map. He has done a good job

I don't know if MWY will do anything to his map, it was going well but seems like he didn't want to do anymore?

But that's the area that was a huge collections of swamps back in the middle ages, remember that map I posted a while back
I could desaturate a bit the green in swamp texture for that area though

Ah yes, I forgot about that. Good point!

It could be worth looking quickly at MWY's map for that swampy area (he posted a picture a few pages back), I thought he did a good job because he put small 'lakes' of water and some trees on that area, then gently border that with desert to the south

In general, [about the red circle island] I was just thinking about the dark green colour used at the river and how maybe it could be desaturated a bit - what do you think?

[Lifthrasir]

But that's the area that was a huge collections of swamps back in the middle ages, remember that map I posted a while back
I could desaturate a bit the green in swamp texture for that area though

You can also do something similar to what MWY did by adding a few small lakes on and beside the Euphrates river to represent the swamps.

I don't know if MWY will do anything to his map, it was going well but seems like he didn't want to do anymore?

I'm too busy with the animations and some other stuff around the forums to answer. But I know that MWY never stays a long time without modding something

[Melooo182]

Yeah i can make the riverbanks green a tad paler

I haven't paid much attention to Iran-Persia, it just got greener when I edited the textures.

Spoiler for Iran-Persia screenies: 

Spoiler for kermanshah, alamut and ray: 

Not sure why there is a canal/river between Isfahan and Yazd, legacy from HURB, havent researched if there was/is such thing there hehe.

Spoiler for avhaz, isfahan and yazd: 

Spoiler for shiraz and kerman: 

Spoiler for yadz and kerman: 

Spoiler for central area with desert: 

Spoiler for gorgan, konjikala and mashhad: 

[bigdaddy1204]

Thanks for sharing, these look interesting. My first impression is that it's a positive change, although I need to do a bit of research to check how green those areas are. But I know that Iran in the Middle Ages had a greater population than England until around the 1700 or perhaps slightly later. So it always did seem a bit odd to me just how barren it looked in the original map (how could so many millions of people live in the middle of a sand desert?).

Has anyone else read Iran: Empire of the Mind? I just finished it. That book goes right back to the days of Cyrus the Great, and continues all the way to the Iranian revolution in 1979 and beyond. Was pretty interesting.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Iran-Empire-.../dp/014103629X

One of the interesting facts in that book was that until the modern period, up to half of Iran's population were nomadic pastoralists. The other half lived in the towns, and farmed the land.

[MWY]

Nono Im still there and working, don't worry. Previews will come when I'm done.

[bigdaddy1204]

Hooray! That's good news

[Lifthrasir]

Yeah i can make the riverbanks green a tad paler

I haven't paid much attention to Iran-Persia, it just got greener when I edited the textures.

Spoiler for Iran-Persia screenies: 

Spoiler for kermanshah, alamut and ray: 

Not sure why there is a canal/river between Isfahan and Yazd, legacy from HURB, havent researched if there was/is such thing there hehe.

Spoiler for avhaz, isfahan and yazd: 

Spoiler for shiraz and kerman: 

Spoiler for yadz and kerman: 

Spoiler for central area with desert: 

Spoiler for gorgan, konjikala and mashhad: 

The maps look good but as for Irak, they look a bit too "greeny" from my point of view.

Here is a link that might help about Iran map: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...plified-fr.png

[MWY]

Sooo what I changed the past couple of days:

Italy (more unique regions, not all washed up green):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

new:


old:

Byzantium (just adjusted the greenery a bit):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

new:


old:

Anatolya (removed parts of the desert, adjusted the greener areas at the coasts):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

new:


old:

Georgia (just looked bad I think, tried to make it smoother):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

new:


old:

Cuman areas (were way too green I think, now the area has kind of a more unique character):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

new:


old:

Mesopotamia (newest version, compared to the oldest one):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

new:


old:

Persia (Adjusted some stuff, especially the area near the caspian sea):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

new:


old:

I did it mostly according to google maps, but I don't think that it's "more wrong" than before.

What do you think?

[Lifthrasir]

Looks pretty good
I have only 2 comments:
- about Georgia: I think the correct level should be between the old and new version for the area between Kutaissi, Tbilissi, Ani and Qaliqala.
- about Mesopotamia: The area between Al-Wasit, Al-Basra and the Zagros Mountains should be as green as the area between Euphrates and Trigris rivers (South of Bagdad and West of Al-Wasit) with more trees between the Seljuk border and the mountains themselves.

Last thing but that's really to be fastidious: can you make the both immediate sides of the Northern part of Euphrates and Tigris rivers a bit greener as well?

[bigdaddy1204]

Sooo what I changed the past couple of days:
I did it mostly according to google maps, but I don't think that it's "more wrong" than before.

What do you think?

Well done MWY, a pleasure to see your new maps, as always!

I was particularly pleased with the Crimea map (Cuman areas), I think it looks impressive and more realistic than before. Also, I found the changes in Anatolia and Georgia interesting and positive. On Mesopotamia, I am very pleased. It looks beautiful. There is a subtle, sophisticated touch to this map that is uniquely MWY. Good job!

I have a few (small) suggestions, most of these are based on what Lifthrasir has already said:

with more trees between the Seljuk border and the mountains themselves.

The idea to put a few more trees there, is a good idea.

about Mesopotamia: The area between Al-Wasit, Al-Basra and the Zagros Mountains should be as green as the area between Euphrates and Trigris rivers (South of Bagdad and West of Al-Wasit)

I agree with this. Perhaps a couple more trees and the desert patch east of Waset gets a bit smaller. [semi arid scrub could be used to reduce its size slightly)

Last thing but that's really to be fastidious: can you make the both immediate sides of the Northern part of Euphrates and Tigris rivers a bit greener as well?

I agree.

As the Euphrates moves north, crossing the border into Mosul province, it becomes much more deeply cut into the rock. This makes irrigation much more difficult, so the green should stay close to the river. As for the Tigris, all the ancient cities were on the east side of the river because of the excellent water drainage between there and the mountains. The west bank of the Tigris would be relatively more arid (until we get to Mosul/Kurdistan area, which is green - see photo on page 1).

[bigdaddy1204]

@Lifthrasir: I've edited my post to make it easier.

Basically, yes to everything you said.

[bigdaddy1204]

Hi guys, I've just noticed this map of Iran which I thought might be useful. It came up while I was researching a post on another topic. Could be useful when looking for agricultural land. It's not surprising that most of the economic activity and production is in the green and brown coloured areas.

[bigdaddy1204]

Isn't it funny that Iran was never featured in the vanilla Rome TW and Medieval 2 games. I get the impression CA had little knowledge of history. Civilisation arose in the fertile crescent, centred on Mesopotamia, parts of Anatolia and the Levant, as well as south-west Iran near the Zagros and the Persian gulf. Archaeologists have recently found ancient farming tools in the Zagros Mountains of Iran which reveal that Iranian people were grinding wheat and barley about 11,000 years ago, and therefore the fertile crescent extends further east than previously thought.

The Persian Empire was the mightiest in the ancient world for centuries; even before it, the empire of the Medes, an Iranian people, covered much of the same area in 650BC. The Achaemenid Empire ruled until 330BC. The Parthians ruled from 250BC. The Sassanids ruled from c.200AD to 654AD. The Abbasid empire was created in 750AD on the basis of heavily Persian support. The Samanids ruled much of Iran from 820AD. Persia continued to be the powerhouse of civilisation, learning and culture until the Mongol invasion in 1219.

Anyway the relevance of all this is that Persia should be in the total war games. It was far more powerful and important than Rome until at least 133BC, and even then Rome was never able to defeat Parthia nor the Sassanids. So CA's decision not to include it in their vanilla games is arguably an act of astonishing historical ignorance. If we go back to the drawing board, from the conceptual point of view a game that seeks to cover the ancient or medieval periods should be centred on the Middle East, with Europe and Mongolia as offshoots at the periphery, inhabited by various barbarous peoples.

If we take Medieval 2 as an example, there are 22 factions in the vanilla game. Of these, only three were Muslim. Three. Versus 15 Christian factions. I mean, come on. Seriously? No. *shakes head in disbelief. Here's how the faction list should actually look for Medieval 2:

22 factions

1). Almoravids (Morocco/Spain)
2). Banu Hilal (Algeria/Tunisia)
3). Fatimids (Egypt)
4). Taifa of Zaragossa (Spain
5). Taifa of Seville (Spain)
6). Emirate of Damascus
7). Emirate of Mosul
8). Abbassids of Baghdad
9). Seljuks of Iran
10). Seljuks of Rum
11). Danishmends (Turkey)
12). Ghaznavids (east Iran)
13). Khwarezmian Empire (north Iran)

Non-Muslim factions

14). Rajput Indian princes
15). Byzantine Empire
16). Kingdom of Georgia
17). Leon-Castile
18). French
19). Holy Roman Empire
20). Venice
21). Normans of Italy
22). Kingdom of Hungary

This would more accurately reflect the significant powers of the day. Under this plan, there would be no England or Scotland - those nations didn't exist in 1080 and are an anachronism. The Norman lords of what is now England were French dukes, and thus can be covered by the "French" faction. Scotland was a backwater beyond the edge of the civilised world and can be covered by Rebels. Portugal didn't exist in 1080 and can be ruled by the Muslim Taifa of Seville. Denmark was an irrelevant backwater and can be rebel. Poland and Russia are regrettable losses, but they were too far beyond the pale of civilisation to be included. The Papal states does kind of need to be a faction, but it wasn't important enough to justify cutting one of the other factions on the list so it will just have to be incorporated into the HRE, which was after all created by the Pope. He can then operate similar to the council of nobles, but with effect on all Catholic factions. Milan is too small to be worthy of a faction and can be covered by strong rebels.

So there you have it, I've cut it down to just 8 Christian factions and 13 Muslim ones, with the Indian Rajputs as the only polytheistic faction. Now that's more like it! A total war based on my plan would be the best ever.

[Melooo182]

Not sure if the correct place to discuss this but being the game targeted mainly for a "western" audience is no surprise it was principally focused on Europe.
But good thing that mods like Broken Crescent exist