New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

[Kraut]

Love the fact that we’re getting a brand new HISTORICAL epic set in China.

Same for me.
I asked for "something new".

CA delivered, I must say.

[SturmChurro]

Well, this is a full on Total War title and not a saga. They could easily do something similar to SHOGUN 2and come out with DLC expansion(s) that focus on different periods in the region. Since it's this "Three Kingdoms" thing I don't think they are really going to diverge much from this central plot, at least in it's main campaign.

I don't think they are going to be riding dragons, but I hope they have the lords more like they do in SHOGUN 2 rather than Warhammer where even benign melee lords were like 20 feet tall and could take on multiple 120 man units. In the trailer they definitely looked like the latter. Yes, Warhammer 2 does have some nice new animations with polearm/spear units. Check out some high elf closeups, however you can't really personally set unit formation like you used to, can't even make archers spread out. Hopefully those make a return since this is a historical title.

[ggsimmonds]

Can anyone point me to a good source on actual warfare of the time?

I'm familiar with the events and people, but from what I've read it seems like it was mostly my group of peasant framers against yours, and whoever loses their nerve first loses the battle.

[Yue Fei]

Can anyone point me to a good source on actual warfare of the time?

I'm familiar with the events and people, but from what I've read it seems like it was mostly my group of peasant framers against yours, and whoever loses their nerve first loses the battle.

Your best bet is to start here: https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/html/1885/42048/index.html Read Rafe's stuff, specifically Generals of the South.

Additionally, go to this forum: http://the-scholars.com/ if you have any specific questions. There's a great deal of intelligent and well read individuals there.

To be brief, in the earliest part of the period that is usually considered the "Three Kingdoms", the Yellow Turban Rebellion, the most skilled troops were those situated on the frontiers, and in the capital itself. Once Dong Zhuo came to power, the need for skilled troops became apparent. Cao Cao created a large number of military reforms, as well as monopolizing heavy cavalry supplemented by Di, Xiongnu, and Wuhuan tribes. In addition, he created agricultural reforms that were meant for the support of military forces. Instead of before where ordinary commoners had a military service obligation, Cao Cao created specific military households concentrated in the capital and other major areas. This allowed his military authorities to have stable bases from which reliable troops could be called upon. Most of the other states followed his example (Such as Zhuge Liang's plan was to implement Cao Cao's Tuntian policy in his northern campaigns).

In the early part of this period (The Yellow Turban Rebellion) military institutions were ad hoc, and largely varied upon the commander's desires. There was no real standardization for the most part until Cao Cao established his power base, but by the time of Dong Zhuo, there had been enough battles and uprisings that most charismatic warlords were able to call upon skilled troops.

While it's true my memory maybe faulty, as I read this a long while ago, I don't see how any of this contradict what I've said. The warfare depicted in the novel is fairly realistic and historically grounded. You won't get a ghost unit just because a ghost haunted a certain character in the novel.

You will find stories of magicans, ghosts, spirits in all cultures' histories so it's not exactly noteworthy if the novel had elements of the supernatural in it's events... There are far crazier supernatural accounts in actual historical records in other cultures.

The warfare in the novel isn't really historically grounded for the time period. There's quite a lot more duels between officers depicted in the novel than there are in the contemporary historical records of the time.

- There's Lu Bu dueling Guo Si (Lu Bu was forced to withdraw once Guo Si's cavalry showed up)
- The action where Guan Yu charged through Yan Liang's troops, impaled him with his spear, cut off his head, and returned to Cao Cao's lines
- Yan Xing wounding and nearly killing Ma Chao (Ma Chao's men showed up and Yan Xing was forced to withdraw)
- Taishi Ci and Sun Ce fighting it out hand to hand, both of their retinues show up, the two withdraw; Taishi Ci takes Bofu's helmet, Sun Ce takes Ziyi's short ji.

Those are the only four that there are actual records for. In addition, the novel makes use of quite a few fantastical style formations (and methods in breaking them), weapons that didn't exist for another 900 years later (the big heavy axes, wolf teeth clubs, crescent halberds, etc), and the utilization of gunpowder signals which didn't exist at the time either. Not only does the novel not give a good depiction of Three Kingdoms era combat, it doesn't even give a good depiction of Song to Ming dynasty combat.

[Roma_Victrix]

Love the fact that we’re getting a brand new HISTORICAL epic set in China. Worried as hell by the martial arts combat shown in the trailer.

Yeah, let's hope it doesn't go all Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon at us.

Check out some high elf closeups, however you can't really personally set unit formation like you used to, can't even make archers spread out. Hopefully those make a return since this is a historical title.

Why does CA insist on screwing the pooch here? Allowing your archers to adopt a loose formation shouldn't be some controversial issue. You should just be allowed to do it, like in previous titles. That's pretty aggravating.

Can anyone point me to a good source on actual warfare of the time?

I'm familiar with the events and people, but from what I've read it seems like it was mostly my group of peasant framers against yours, and whoever loses their nerve first loses the battle.

For military organization of Han-dynasty Chinese forces, you should check out the following sources:

* Bielenstein, Hans. (1980). The Bureaucracy of Han Times. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-22510-8.

* Chang, Chun-shu. (2007). The Rise of the Chinese Empire: Volume II; Frontier, Immigration, & Empire in Han China, 130 B.C. – A.D. 157. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press. ISBN 0-472-11534-0.

* de Crespigny, Rafe. (2007). A Biographical Dictionary of Later Han to the Three Kingdoms (23–220 AD). Leiden: Koninklijke Brill. ISBN 90-04-15605-4. [NOTE: although this is a collection of biographies, there is an important section on the military.]

* Di Cosmo, Nicola. (2002). Ancient China and Its Enemies: The Rise of Nomadic Power in East Asian History. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-77064-5.

To summarize things, during the Western Han (202 BC - 9 AD) and Wang Mang's Xin-dynasty interregnum (9-23 AD), there was a small professional standing army known as the Northern Army and a larger force of conscripted peasants known as the Southern Army. During the Eastern Han (25-220 AD), the mandatory two-year conscription service was discontinued in favor of an all-volunteer force, as peasants could simply pay to avoid conscription into the army. Convicted criminals avoided imprisonment of forced labor if they also joined the army. Mercenaries, as far as I know, were only used in significant numbers for the guard of the capital city Luoyang. Borderlands were mostly protected by foreign nomadic tribes drafted into Han military service. During times of crisis a system was already in place for organizing, commanding, managing and paying militias raised from the countryside.

The problem with the Yellow Turban Rebellion, however, was that the central authority was so weakened that regional governors and noblemen decided to retain the forces they raised to quell the rebels, adding them to their private household retinues. The problem was exacerbated by the civil war of the coalition against Dong Zhuo, followed by the civil war between Yuan Shao and Cao Cao. These conflicts initiated a period of decentralized, semi-feudalism of regional lords raising their own armies for their own purposes. It was a problem corrected by later dynasties which restored order and central authority.

They really design a Three Kingdoms game based on Han dynasty fashion ( instead Song fashion as very many other Three Kingdoms games/comics/films).

Of course, the General still use Song's weapon. However, almost of soldiers is from Han dynasty. I always dream about it.

They got something right at least. See the pictures I posted on the previous page of cavalrymen and infantrymen depicted in Han-period tomb murals and statues. The similarities between them and the regular soldiers in the trailer are fairly strong, although perhaps not a perfect representation.

While not in the novel but rather in folklore, Cao Cao used Taoist magic to summon a swarm of locusts on Lu Bu. The locusts ate all of Lu Bu's grain and he was forced to retreat. This actually did happen when Lu Bu invaded Yan Province but of course chances are it wasn't caused by magic.

Bet he didn't see that one coming! Serves Lu Bu right, for being such a backstabber.

While it's true my memory maybe faulty, as I read this a long while ago, I don't see how any of this contradict what I've said. The warfare depicted in the novel is fairly realistic and historically grounded. You won't get a ghost unit just because a ghost haunted a certain character in the novel.

You will find stories of magicans, ghosts, spirits in all cultures' histories so it's not exactly noteworthy if the novel had elements of the supernatural in it's events... There are far crazier supernatural accounts in actual historical records in other cultures.

So long as CA keeps the witchcraft and ghosts out of it, I'll be happy. I would also prefer that they not overpower famous individuals just because they're famous and are able to slash-and-hack five thousand soldiers in a single battle in the Dynasty Warriors games.

Your best bet is to start here: https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/html/1885/42048/index.html Read Rafe's stuff, specifically Generals of the South.

Additionally, go to this forum: http://the-scholars.com/ if you have any specific questions. There's a great deal of intelligent and well read individuals there.

Thanks for the links!

To be brief, in the earliest part of the period that is usually considered the "Three Kingdoms", the Yellow Turban Rebellion, the most skilled troops were those situated on the frontiers, and in the capital itself. Once Dong Zhuo came to power, the need for skilled troops became apparent. Cao Cao created a large number of military reforms, as well as monopolizing heavy cavalry supplemented by Di, Xiongnu, and Wuhuan tribes. In addition, he created agricultural reforms that were meant for the support of military forces. Instead of before where ordinary commoners had a military service obligation, Cao Cao created specific military households concentrated in the capital and other major areas. This allowed his military authorities to have stable bases from which reliable troops could be called upon. Most of the other states followed his example (Such as Zhuge Liang's plan was to implement Cao Cao's Tuntian policy in his northern campaigns).

In the early part of this period (The Yellow Turban Rebellion) military institutions were ad hoc, and largely varied upon the commander's desires. There was no real standardization for the most part until Cao Cao established his power base, but by the time of Dong Zhuo, there had been enough battles and uprisings that most charismatic warlords were able to call upon skilled troops.

Great summary, although I wouldn't exactly call the Eastern Han's professional standing Northern Army and the reserves guarding strategic passes as "ad hoc" military institutions. Perhaps you're thinking about the militias.

The warfare in the novel isn't really historically grounded for the time period. There's quite a lot more duels between officers depicted in the novel than there are in the contemporary historical records of the time.

- There's Lu Bu dueling Guo Si (Lu Bu was forced to withdraw once Guo Si's cavalry showed up)
- The action where Guan Yu charged through Yan Liang's troops, impaled him with his spear, cut off his head, and returned to Cao Cao's lines
- Yan Xing wounding and nearly killing Ma Chao (Ma Chao's men showed up and Yan Xing was forced to withdraw)
- Taishi Ci and Sun Ce fighting it out hand to hand, both of their retinues show up, the two withdraw; Taishi Ci takes Bofu's helmet, Sun Ce takes Ziyi's short ji.

Those are the only four that there are actual records for. In addition, the novel makes use of quite a few fantastical style formations (and methods in breaking them), weapons that didn't exist for another 900 years later (the big heavy axes, wolf teeth clubs, crescent halberds, etc), and the utilization of gunpowder signals which didn't exist at the time either. Not only does the novel not give a good depiction of Three Kingdoms era combat, it doesn't even give a good depiction of Song to Ming dynasty combat.

This is exactly the sort of silliness that CA should keep out of this game. I don't want to see duels and I most definitely do not want to see gross anachronisms like gunpowder bombs being used. The odd weapon here or there that should belong to the Song/Yuan/Ming period is fine (albeit imperfect), so long as they don't go overboard. I want them to largely stick to what we know about Han and Three Kingdoms' period warfare, soldiery, tactics, equipment, weapons and armor.

Due to the inability of the central government to raise and maintain their armies they started to largely rely on nobles and the members of the landed gentry to provide troops in order to supplement the Imperial army.

For example a commander such as Sun Jian, who was a minor official, could raise a small amount of troops and be rewarded with lands. The land would be used for upkeep and gradually the more campaigns they took part in they would gain more soldiers, spoils and provide their existing armies with experience. Though his family was not of high nobility they had considerable influence in their county and Sun Jian and his father worked as officials in Fuchun county.

Ah! I see that you beat me to it. Good post.

The "Fantasy" elements like the magic should probably be left to the wayside. The more mundane substitutions offer so much more in terms of gameplay and aesthetic. You don't need magic to cause rockslides or wildfires. Soldiers can do that just fine with some encouragement.

I couldn't agree more! Another good post.

[Epic28]

Why does CA insist on screwing the pooch here? Allowing your archers to adopt a loose formation shouldn't be some controversial issue. You should just be allowed to do it, like in previous titles. That's pretty aggravating.

To make it worse, they added a "unique" activate ability for nearly every unit (not so unique). "Rally" "Fear" "Battlecry" "Heavy Shot" "Quick Reload" "Trample Charge".... It looks like my spell menu in Skyrim.

If you find yourself equipping an active every time you do anything it should really be a passive ability. Or my preference, removed entirely. That way the battles are focused more on deployment and formation setups, not clicking a button to boost every unit stat for 90 secs.

[Evan MF]

To make it worse, they added a "unique" activate ability for nearly every unit (not so unique). "Rally" "Fear" "Battlecry" "Heavy Shot" "Quick Reload" "Trample Charge".... It looks like my spell menu in Skyrim.

If you find yourself equipping an active every time you do anything it should really be a passive ability. Or my preference, removed entirely. That way the battles are focused more on deployment and formation setups, not clicking a button to boost every unit stat for 90 secs.

Totally agreed. Not only are they extremely contrived, most of them are abilities that you would never want to not use. Is there ever a time when you wouldn't activate 'Banzai' during a No-Dachi charge? Or where you wouldn't use 'Second Wind' on Great Guard. They're totally redundant if there's no downsides to using them in most situations, they merely become a chore if you want to maximize your chances of winning a battle. Regardless of their redundancy though is the more important issue they pose: they totally obstruct the flow of the gameplay. I don't play Total War to spam ability buttons like I would in some MOBA or cookie-cutter arena RTS game, I play to embody the chessplayer-general role and command large bodies of men to their victory or demise, through maneuvering, positioning, formation and combined-arms combat. I am far less interested in monitoring spreadsheets units stats and optimizing their buffs than I am in reading the field as I see it, experimenting the with the particle system that the units are modeled by and playing with realistic physics engines. I have a feeling that the large hiring spree CA engaged in over the last several years, combined with the original developers taking more backseat roles or outright retiring from project management, is responsible for the special ability and hero feature-creep, at the expense of what made Total War such a unique gaming experience in the first place. A regrettable situation indeed.

[Yue Fei]

Yeah, let's hope it doesn't go all Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon at us.


Great summary, although I wouldn't exactly call the Eastern Han's professional standing Northern Army and the reserves guarding strategic passes as "ad hoc" military institutions. Perhaps you're thinking about the militias.

Yes, I was talking about the provincial forces. During the reign of Guangwu they were still quite formidable, but he took steps to reducing their effectiveness for worry that commoners knowing military matters. But indeed, the Northern Army, Liang troops, and on the frontiers were professional veterans who were well skilled.

[Evan MF]

Well, this is a full on Total War title and not a saga. They could easily do something similar to SHOGUN 2and come out with DLC expansion(s) that focus on different periods in the region. Since it's this "Three Kingdoms" thing I don't think they are really going to diverge much from this central plot, at least in it's main campaign.

I don't think they are going to be riding dragons, but I hope they have the lords more like they do in SHOGUN 2 rather than Warhammer where even benign melee lords were like 20 feet tall and could take on multiple 120 man units. In the trailer they definitely looked like the latter. Yes, Warhammer 2 does have some nice new animations with polearm/spear units. Check out some high elf closeups, however you can't really personally set unit formation like you used to, can't even make archers spread out. Hopefully those make a return since this is a historical title.

Shogun 2 was about the limit for me with special abilities and 'hero' units (which were actually pretty poor value for money and largely useless, esp. in multiplayer). I expect Three Kingdoms to give their hero units a lot more of a role, given the emphasis the trailer gave them. If you compare this trailer to the Shogun 2 one, the Shogun 2 one had generic combatants dueling in somewhat of a realistic manner, whereas Three Kingdoms has all sorts of supernatural jump kills and ninja moves. I believe I speak for myself and many other old-skool players when I say that the original draw to Total War was the appeal of possessing a General's chessplayer-like power over large contingents of men, with the visceral character-driven side of war being less central and more of a secondary enhancement. I fear the latter is taking more and more precedence over the former in the Total War series in general.

[ptoss1]

A China Total War finally happened?

Pure insanity.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

While not in the novel but rather in folklore, Cao Cao used Taoist magic to summon a swarm of locusts on Lu Bu. The locusts ate all of Lu Bu's grain and he was forced to retreat. This actually did happen when Lu Bu invaded Yan Province but of course chances are it wasn't caused by magic.

[Anna_Gein]

This Dong Zhuo seems like an interesting character. Hopefully he will be playable from day one.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In fact I hope there will be more than 3/4 playable factions.

[Eien]

This Dong Zhuo seems like an interesting character. Hopefully he will be playable from day one.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In fact I hope there will be more than 3/4 playable factions.

Aside from the main three powers, there were Yuan Shao, Yuan Shu, Gongsun Zan during the Yellow Turban rebellion. If the game starts from 190CE then these factions should be there I suppose.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Aside from the main three powers, there were Yuan Shao, Yuan Shu, Gongsun Zan during the Yellow Turban rebellion. If the game starts from 190CE then these factions should be there I suppose.

I guess it really depends when this game is supposed to start.
I'm assuming the start date is 190. If so there would be a lot of factions, too many for me to name all of them. If it was in say 193 then the factions should be Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Sun Jian, Gongsun Zan, Gonsun Yuan, Yuan Shao, Yuan Shu, Ma Teng, Li Jue, Liu Biao, Zhang Yang, Lu Bu, Liu Yao, Xu Gong, Wang Lang, Tao Qian, Zhang Xiu, Liu Zhang, Zhang Lu, the Xiongnu (in Bing province), the Yellow Turbans, various southern tribes, the Heishan Bandits.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Due to the inability of the central government to raise and maintain their armies they started to largely rely on nobles and the members of the landed gentry to provide troops in order to supplement the Imperial army.

For example a commander such as Sun Jian, who was a minor official, could raise a small amount of troops and be rewarded with lands. The land would be used for upkeep and gradually the more campaigns they took part in they would gain more soldiers, spoils and provide their existing armies with experience. Though his family was not of high nobility they had considerable influence in their county and Sun Jian and his father worked as officials in Fuchun county.

Initially Sun Jian took part in policing actions against pirates in his native Yang province, later took part in the campaigns against the Yellow Turbans in Yu province (under Huangfu Song & Zhu Jun and alongside cavalry commander Cao Cao). From there he quickly worked his way up the ranks and became a notable army commander under Zhang Wen. Both Dong Zhuo and Sun Jian served under Zhang Wen in Liang province to put down a revolt by the Qiang tribes and Han rebels under Han Sui and Bian Zhang. It is curious that Sun Jian suggested to minister Zhang Wen that he should execute Dong Zhuo, something that was not carried out.

Later on when Dong Zhuo seized power in the capital of Luoyang he allied himself with Yuan Shu, raised a larger army and joined the coalition against the "tyrant" Dong Zhuo together with other officers similar to himself and more powerful members of the nobility who were capable of raising larger armies. Sun Jian distinguished himself by taking the capital Luoyang. After the defeat and assassination of Dong Zhuo, Sun Jian remained allied to Yuan Shu and campaigned against Liu Biao in order to expand his fief. He was killed shortly after in an ambush and was succeeded as head of the Sun clan by his son Sun Ce.

Both of these leaders would lay the foundation for the state of Wu under Sun Jian's younger son Sun Quan. Sun Quan succeeded his brother as Marquis of Wu in 200 (King of Wu after 220 and then Emperor of Wu in 229 until his death in 252) and challenged Cao Cao at Red Cliff in 208.

[Anapoda]

I have no problem with the game having many fantasy elements personally. The main interest i have in that story are of course the characters and those are written bigger than life.

The book is a romanticized version of a historical political crisis and honestly i'm cool with that.

Heroes and villains should totally be a capital element of the game.

[zoner16]

I have no problem with the game having many fantasy elements personally. The main interest i have in that story are of course the characters and those are written bigger than life.

The book is a romanticized version of a historical political crisis and honestly i'm cool with that.

Heroes and villains should totally be a capital element of the game.

The "Fantasy" elements like the magic should probably be left to the wayside. The more mundane substitutions offer so much more in terms of gameplay and aesthetic. You don't need magic to cause rockslides or wildfires. Soldiers can do that just fine with some encouragement.

The "Romantic" elements I'd say I'm mostly willing to let slide as long as they don't majorly impact gameplay. Armies shouldn't wait around for their generals to finish dueling, and while warrior generals can be top tier fighters, they're not Warhammer one man armies. We had a pretty good system for hero units in Shogun 2. I don't see why it can't work here. Some anachronisms for the sake of aesthetic and tradition are alright so long as they aren't everywhere. Guan Yu can have a guandao so long as I'm not not seeing anyone else with it. Same with Lu Bu and his ridiculous looking double sided ji and Zhang Fei's snake spear. It's not something worth getting an aneurysm over.

While I like the larger than life characters of the book, the blatantly biased morality and character assassination that it engages is really grating. Most of the book's characters had real life equivalents that were just as forceful of personalities, just not as cut and dry in terms of "good guy/bad guy." I'd say adapting the book's stylistic flair and dramatizations could work pretty well if paired with a more nuanced and true to history portrayal. It doesn't even have to go all the way. Liu Bei can still be a populist hero, just don't make him Gandhi. Cao Cao can still be a ruthlessly ambitious warlord, just don't make him Hitler.

[LestaT]

Can anyone recommend me a good translated version of both Record amd Romance? The last time I read Romance was probably many, many decades ago and not really a full version (more like children's version).

[LinusLinothorax]

A heavy focus on heroes is also implied in the recently released FAQ:

"The Han Dynasty is crumbling; the stage is set for a great new epoch, forged by the fires of conquest – the time to establish your legacy is now. But with many warlords eyeing the throne, each with a large army to back up their claim, it’s clear that the future of China will be shaped by its champions."

[yevon]

They really design a Three Kingdoms game based on Han dynasty fashion ( instead Song fashion as very many other Three Kingdoms games/comics/films).

Of course, the General still use Song's weapon. However, almost of soldiers is from Han dynasty. I always dream about it.