Topless feminists storm stage at Muslim conference in France, get kicked off stage, arrested

[alhoon]

Guys, hold your immoral views that say that coercing a person to have sex is fine just because it's not in the same level as someone breaking in a house and raping a woman, and I'll keep mine.

[Roma_Victrix]

Guys, hold your immoral views that say that coercing a person to have sex is fine just because it's not in the same level as someone breaking in a house and raping a woman, and I'll keep mine.

What do you mean by "coercion" here, blackmail? Blackmailing someone to trade sex or else they face consequences is hideous and obviously illegal. It's not illegal, however, to persuade a woman or man to have sex when they're not really in the mood, and then afterwards they kind of regret it. That's not rape if consent (without blackmail) was absolutely given at the time of copulation. Personally I think it is sleazy to get a girl to have sex with you this way, but from a legal standpoint it is irrelevant to the definition of rape.

In either case, let's switch horses in midstream here and focus on Feminist activists in France, please!

[Himster]

Guys, hold your immoral views that say that coercing a person to have sex is fine just because it's not in the same level as someone breaking in a house and raping a woman, and I'll keep mine.

Your definition of "coercion" is absurdly vague.

[War lord]

We're not sexist, we swear, we just think that it's okay to harass a women into having sex with you so long as it doesn't involve either physical violence or open blackmail!

Sorry guys, in the modern world, the circumstances of the Yes matter just as much if a court has to establish whether consent was granted. That's now the official position, at least in Europe, last I heard courts in parts of the US still accept "she was asking for it dressed like that" as a defense.

If she says no and you have sex anyway? Possible rape case. She's inebriated? Possible rape case. Either get a clear and enthusiastic yes, or assume sex isn't on the table. It's very simple, if you don't have consent, it's rape.

[alhoon]

It goes for both sexes dude. If an employer bats her eyelashes to an employee promising to help him advance his career in exchange for a couple of hot nights at the next conference behind the back of his wife etc, and the man gives in because he has seen others with fewer qualifications moving ahead of him, and feels terrible after it... it's still shady. Sure, not as bad as clear rape but still repugnant. If the man was OK with it despite his marriage it's (IMO) fine since feelings weren't hurt and he still can look himself in the mirror.

[Roma_Victrix]

It goes for both sexes dude. If an employer bats her eyelashes to an employee promising to help him advance his career in exchange for a couple of hot nights at the next conference behind the back of his wife etc, and the man gives in because he has seen others with fewer qualifications moving ahead of him, and feels terrible after it... it's still shady. Sure, not as bad as clear rape but still repugnant. If the man was OK with it despite his marriage it's (IMO) fine since feelings weren't hurt and he still can look himself in the mirror.

Yeah, it is pretty vile to trade sex for favors, but it's not technically rape. At no point does the man in this scenario need to offer sex or is forced to at gunpoint. The same would be true with the genders reversed here and a male employer requested sex from a female employee in order to allow her to take a promotion. In either of these cases the employee could immediately file a sexual harassment lawsuit, but rape has nothing to do with it.

[clone]

It means having sex when a woman doesn't want to, whether it's rape, non-consensual or even because it would make a promotion come easier or it's a "we have sex now, or we break up and I hook up with someone else!" and other cases when the woman (or man) is not into it at all, but does never the less.

look if someone says " either you sleep with me or you dont get promoted even if you quilify" for me this is both illigal and unethical.
but if someone says " there are other canditades more skilled than you but if you sleep with me i will promote you " it is still unethical but not so much compared to the first

[alhoon]

Yeah, it is pretty vile to trade sex for favors, but it's not technically rape.

I know.
But me and the feminist from the links agree that such coercion is immoral and while not "technically" rape, it is a form of rape. It should not IMO bring the same penalties as forcing someone with blackmail or at gunpoint, but it should bring hefty penalties. It has the potential to traumatize a person too (man or woman), even if not to the same degree as being taken at gunpoint.

As such, this list with the quotes from feminists has a couple of things that are, IMO, correct.

[Roma_Victrix]

I know.
But me and the feminist from the links agree that such coercion is immoral and while not "technically" rape, it is a form of rape. It should not IMO bring the same penalties as forcing someone with blackmail or at gunpoint, but it should bring hefty penalties. It has the potential to traumatize a person too (man or woman), even if not to the same degree as being taken at gunpoint.

As such, this list with the quotes from feminists has a couple of things that are, IMO, correct.

No, it shouldn't bring hefty penalties at all as far as the law is concerned (that's a dangerous slippery slope you don't want to go down). This totally denies the freedom and agency of the person offering sex for the favor, who could just as easily refuse and even expose the creep who made the offer of benefits and/or promotions. However, the hypothetical company would be wise to sack whoever is encouraging men or women to sleep with him/her for benefits and promotions up the chain of command. Not only does that produce a powder keg situation for a hostile work environment should said sexual relations turn sour and his/her favorites fall out of favor by refusing to give any more sex, but from a PR standpoint it has potential to create unwanted attention from local news and a media circus. Even worse, people could call for a boycott of said company's products and services until the right people are fired. The law need not get involved at all. Once you threaten a company's bottom line, they bow down to public pressure instantaneously. Besides, many companies have zero tolerance for managers sleeping around with employees for this very reason.

[alhoon]

It's not just work environment. "Sex or we break up" \ "it's your duty as my married spouse to give me sex" etc if taken too far can indeed damage a person. You can whine, complain or argue about the absence or frequency of sex in a relationship. You should not be able to demand it.
If your wife doesn't put out enough and you can't take it, get a divorce; you're not allowed to push her on the bed and have your way thinking "after we start, she'll get into it" or something. When your boyfriend doesn't want to have sex and can't get it up because he is tired, you're not allowed to belittle him, telling him he's not man enough, that he should get a Viagra, that you should call his friends instead etc (that's psychological violence).

Anyway, as you mentioned that's a different discussion. What I wanted to say is "I don't disagree with every quote in that list of feminist quotes". Whether you consider me extreme or not, it's not the point I think. I expressed my views on the point.

[clone]

It's not just work environment. "Sex or we break up" \ "it's your duty as my married spouse to give me sex" etc if taken too far can indeed damage a person. You can whine, complain or argue about the absence or frequency of sex in a relationship. You should not be able to demand it.
If your wife doesn't put out enough and you can't take it, get a divorce; you're not allowed to push her on the bed and have your way thinking "after we start, she'll get into it" or something. When your boyfriend doesn't want to have sex and can't get it up because he is tired, you're not allowed to belittle him, telling him he's not man enough, that he should get a Viagra, that you should call his friends instead etc (that's psychological violence).

Anyway, as you mentioned that's a different discussion. What I wanted to say is "I don't disagree with every quote in that list of feminist quotes". Whether you consider me extreme or not, it's not the point I think. I expressed my views on the point.

i agree with those. but those issues you are talking havent anything to do with feminism just justice

[alhoon]

Yes indeed Clone, and a Feminist said it. Again, I was just saying that not everything in that list of quotes was man-hating drivel.

[Kraut]

And the result of this wife-beating conference was...?

[alhoon]

Woman beating.

[MRENGLISHRULES]

Look, the man deserves prison but the security team did their jobs and the feminists deserve some osprt of consequence for their insensitive and indecent action. You can't just walk into somewhere like that, like that. Ever seen someone walk into the house of commons like that? No.

[Kraut]

You can't just walk into somewhere like that, like that.

Obviously they can, it seems?

Ever seen someone walk into the house of commons like that? No.

Not exactly the house of commons, but a quick Google search "Femen + parliament" will give you several cases in other countries.

[bigdaddy1204]

I think the women who did this are profoundly ignorant about Islam. They didn't realise that Islam is far more feminist than the mainstream culture they are from. If they actually knew anything about Islam, they'd convert.

[Himster]

They didn't realise that Islam is far more feminist than the mainstream culture they are from.

That's hilarious.

[Condottiere 40K]

Unfortunately, the patriarchs who run Islam sockblock any reform, or other interpretation that differs from their own.

Assuming Islam actually is feministic, rather than interpreted through rose coloured glasses.

[Kraut]

They didn't realise that Islam is far more feminist than the mainstream culture they are from.

Yeah, it´s also more fat-free, low carb and decaf than the damn mainstream culture. Like normal liberal free loving paradise with chocolate frosting, just better.
And please would somebody think of the children? Thank you!