Erdogan-NATO members are not strong enough to stand up to Turkey

[nhytgbvfeco2]

It's the only logical conclusion.

It really isn't though. It might seem like it to you since you are so used to that kind of talk from your politicians, but in most of the world leaders don't bark threats at other countries.
Personally the statement makes me think more of the valiant Greek defense of their lands against foreign invaders, be it the Persians of the antiquity or the more recent Italian invasion, and this makes much more sense considering that Turkey is the agressor in this dispute.

[PointOfViewGun]

It really isn't though. It might seem like it to you since you are so used to that kind of talk from your politicians, but in most of the world leaders don't bark threats at other countries.
Personally the statement makes me think more of the valiant Greek defense of their lands against foreign invaders, be it the Persians of the antiquity or the more recent Italian invasion, and this makes much more sense considering that Turkey is the agressor in this dispute.

This is not between Sweden and Turkey. It's between Greece and Turkey. Greek politicians are not exactly good role models for Turkish politicians. A valiant defense is not something you don't want to do as the Greek president started his words with. You can do mental gymnastics all you want. Arguing against me for the sake of arguing is not exactly a valid argumentation.

[Kyriakos]

This is not between Sweden and Turkey. It's between Greece and Turkey. Greek politicians are not exactly good role models for Turkish politicians. A valiant defense is not something you don't want to do as the Greek president started his words with. You can do mental gymnastics all you want. Arguing against me for the sake of arguing is not exactly a valid argumentation.

Since you don't speak greek, why do you persist in claiming he said what you say he said? Is it logical? You make phrases up as you go. You may have read them in a turkish newspaper, or by Erdogan, it still is garbage.
I think at some point you should take a break from speaking of something you have no basis to speak about. As Nhyt said, the statement was about being called to defend the country, as in ancient times or recent ones (including ww2 against Italy). Is it impossible for you, Setekh, to realize you are making a false statement? Are you going to tell us what the greek words Pavlopoulos said so mean, or something?
...

[nhytgbvfeco2]

This is not between Sweden and Turkey. It's between Greece and Turkey. Greek politicians are not exactly good role models for Turkish politicians.A valiant defense is not something you don't want to do as the Greek president started his words with. You can do mental gymnastics all you want.

Sigh. A war is something you don't want to do, Setekh. Having to defend means that you are at war. This is a very simple concept.

Arguing against me for the sake of arguing is not exactly a valid argumentation.

Neither is pretending that your opinion is a fact.

[ioannis76]

https://www.efsyn.gr/arthro/sto-stoh...pr-paylopoylos

η χώρα μας επιδιώκει σχέσεις φιλίας, καλής γειτονίας και στηρίζει την ευρωπαϊκή της προοπτική, αλλά αυτά εξαρτώνται «από τον πλήρη σεβασμό του συνόλου του διεθνούς και του Ευρωπαϊκού δικαίου, «ιδιαιτέρως δε, από τον πλήρη σεβασμό της Συνθήκης της Λωζάνης και του Δικαίου της Θάλασσας, το οποίο δεσμεύει την Τουρκία με την μορφή γενικώς παραδεδεγμένων κανόνων του Διεθνούς Δικαίου, εφαρμοζόμενων εν συνόλω και όχι επιλεκτικώς».
Επιπλέον, υπογράμμισε πως «η Συνθήκη της Λωζάνης, η οποία κατοχυρώνει τα σύνορα, το έδαφος και την κυριαρχία τόσο της Ελλάδας όσο και της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης, δεν αναθεωρείται ούτε επικαιροποιείται και είναι απολύτως σαφής, δίχως ν' αφήνει ίχνος "γκρίζων ζωνών"» και πρόσθεσε:
«Τους λέμε, εδώ είμαστε, να ζήσουμε ειρηνικά, δημιουργικά. Τι πιο απλό, από το να σεβαστούν το διεθνές δίκαιο, τι πιο απλό από το να σεβαστούν το Δίκαιο της Θάλασσας, τη Συνθήκη της Λωζάνης;».
«Μπορεί να μην έχουμε το έδαφος, εκείνο, το οποίο, ιστορικά θα μας αναλογούσε. Ξέρουμε όμως ότι αυτός ο τόπος, αυτή η Ελλάδα, έχει λόγο και υπόσταση στην ΕΕ.
«Εδώ είμαστε. Διαφορετικά ξέρουμε να είμαστε και απέναντι. Δε το θέλουμε, αλλά αν η ιστορία μας υποχρεώσει, θα το πράξουμε όπως το έκαναν και οι πρόγονοί μας»

Our country wishes to have relations of friendhip, be a good neighbor, and it supports the european prospect of Turkey, but these depend on the full respect of all international and European Law, particularly so that of the Lausane treaty and the Law of Sea (turkey has not signed it) which binds Turkey in the shape of generally accepted rules of International Law applied in their entirety and not selectively.
he further stressed that "the Lausane Treaty which consolidates the borders the land and the sovereignty of Greece as well as of the EU, is not revised nor updated and is perfectly clear, without leaving a trace of "grey areas" and he added:
"We tell them (the Turks) we are here, let us live peacefully, creatively. WHat is simpler than for them to respect the international law, and is more simple than for them to respect the law of the sea, the Lausanne Treaty?
"We may not have the land which, historically we would be entitled to. But we know that this land is taken into account (its word counts) and has substance to the EU ( IMHO).
We are here. Otherwise we know how to be on the other side. We don't want it, but if history forces us, we will do so, as our ancestors did."

This is what he said. Now, compared with the dozens of unprovoked contests between Erdogan's Neoottomans (we will break the legs of the Greek Prime minister), Kilincaroglou's Kemalists "It's right under my nose so it's mine" http://www.newgreektv.com/english-ne...-greek-islands, and Aksener's grey wolves (I don't think I need to post a link to the disgusting things that have come out of the mouth of the new Tansoo Chiller), I think it's rather mild (as Pavlopoulos and his remarks generally are, in fact he is so mild he is completely non-existent).

[Chivalry]

"We may not have the land which, historically we would be entitled to. But we know that this land is taken into account and has substance to the EU
We are here. Otherwise we know how to be on the other side. We don't want it, but if history forces us, we will do so, as our ancestors did."

What does he mean with saying "We may not have the land which, historically we would be entitled to; but we know that this land is taken into account... crap crap...WE ARE HERE. OTHERWISE WE KNOW HOW TO BE ON THE OTHER SIDE. We don't want it, but if history forces us, we will do so, as our ancestors did."

And you claim that these words are really innocent? Come on, be serious.

On a side note, it's funny that the whole thread started with the OP doing his propaganda and claiming that Erdogan threatened NATO.

[Emperor Arcturus Mengsk]

Pavlopoulos is the president of Greece which is largely a ceremonial role and has no actual power in governance, the president in Greece acts as a mediator for talks not as a ruler.

You can't compare the weight of his words with Erdogan who promoted himself and gave himself complete control of the government.

[Aexodus]

What does he mean with saying "We may not have the land which, historically we would be entitled to; but we know that this land is taken into account... crap crap...WE ARE HERE. OTHERWISE WE KNOW HOW TO BE ON THE OTHER SIDE. We don't want it, but if history forces us, we will do so, as our ancestors did."

And you claim that these words are really innocent? Come on, be serious.

On a side note, it's funny that the whole thread started with the OP doing his propaganda and claiming that Erdogan threatened NATO.

You seem to have missed out the part where he says 'we don't want' it, before comparing it to statements such as 'break the Greek PM's legs' and 'it's right under my nose so it's mine'

As for comparisons between Golden Dawn and Grey Wolves , Setekh, are the Golden Dawn supported by the Greek government? No, or at least I'm not aware of it (not being from the area of course). Do correct me if I'm wrong however, as I could be judging by your previous statements.

[PointOfViewGun]

Since you don't speak greek, why do you persist in claiming he said what you say he said? Is it logical? You make phrases up as you go. You may have read them in a turkish newspaper, or by Erdogan, it still is garbage.
I think at some point you should take a break from speaking of something you have no basis to speak about. As Nhyt said, the statement was about being called to defend the country, as in ancient times or recent ones (including ww2 against Italy). Is it impossible for you, Setekh, to realize you are making a false statement? Are you going to tell us what the greek words Pavlopoulos said so mean, or something?
...

Why do I claim what he said is what I'm saying what he said? For starters, I linked to the English version of a Greek news portal. To this point you didn't object to how his words were translated. The fact that you're making an issue out of at this point shows me that you're grasping at straws.

Sigh. A war is something you don't want to do, Setekh. Having to defend means that you are at war. This is a very simple concept.
Neither is pretending that your opinion is a fact.

If you're pushed to defending yourself, war is already a reality. Sigh...

https://www.efsyn.gr/arthro/sto-stoh...pr-paylopoylos
Our country wishes to have relations of friendhip, be a good neighbor, and it supports the european prospect of Turkey, but these depend on the full respect of all international and European Law, particularly so that of the Lausane treaty and the Law of Sea (turkey has not signed it) which binds Turkey in the shape of generally accepted rules of International Law applied in their entirety and not selectively.
he further stressed that "the Lausane Treaty which consolidates the borders the land and the sovereignty of Greece as well as of the EU, is not revised nor updated and is perfectly clear, without leaving a trace of "grey areas" and he added:
"We tell them (the Turks) we are here, let us live peacefully, creatively. WHat is simpler than for them to respect the international law, and is more simple than for them to respect the law of the sea, the Lausanne Treaty?
"We may not have the land which, historically we would be entitled to. But we know that this land is taken into account (its word counts) and has substance to the EU ( IMHO).
We are here. Otherwise we know how to be on the other side. We don't want it, but if history forces us, we will do so, as our ancestors did."

This is what he said. Now, compared with the dozens of unprovoked contests between Erdogan's Neoottomans (we will break the legs of the Greek Prime minister), Kilincaroglou's Kemalists "It's right under my nose so it's mine" http://www.newgreektv.com/english-ne...-greek-islands, and Aksener's grey wolves (I don't think I need to post a link to the disgusting things that have come out of the mouth of the new Tansoo Chiller), I think it's rather mild (as Pavlopoulos and his remarks generally are, in fact he is so mild he is completely non-existent).

Thank you for that. Now, it's irrefutable that he wasn't talking about a simple defense of Greece.

Pavlopoulos is the president of Greece which is largely a ceremonial role and has no actual power in governance, the president in Greece acts as a mediator for talks not as a ruler.
You can't compare the weight of his words with Erdogan who promoted himself and gave himself complete control of the government.

It was completely fine when the opposite was happening for others to criticize. I didn't see anyone making that point... What we're doing here is not exactly comparison though. I simply pointed out what he Erdoğan was responding to. Then, mental gymnastics started... Though it's quite nonsensical to argue that the Greek president's words carry negligible weight...

You seem to have missed out the part where he says 'we don't want' it, before comparing it to statements such as 'break the Greek PM's legs' and 'it's right under my nose so it's mine'
As for comparisons between Golden Dawn and Grey Wolves , Setekh, are the Golden Dawn supported by the Greek government? No, or at least I'm not aware of it (not being from the area of course). Do correct me if I'm wrong however, as I could be judging by your previous statements.

You do realize when you put a statement in quotation marks you mean that verbatim it's what's been said? Because Kılıçdaroğlu didn't say anything of that sorts.

I don't know if the Greek government supports the Golden Dawn party, but I know the Turkish government doesn't really support the "group" of Grey Wolves you're talking about.

[Aexodus]

You do realize when you put a statement in quotation marks you mean that verbatim it's what's been said? Because Kılıçdaroğlu didn't say anything of that sorts.

I don't know if the Greek government supports the Golden Dawn party, but I know the Turkish government doesn't really support the "group" of Grey Wolves you're talking about.

Oh, this Kilicdaroglu?

The islands of the Aegean, under our noses, are under the possession of the Greek army.

do forgive my paraphrasing, and it's been established Erdogan supports the grey wolves

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[PointOfViewGun]

Oh, this Kilicdaroglu?

Does he somehow justify Turkish sovereignty over those landmasses because they're under their noses as you suggested? Not really.

do forgive my paraphrasing, and it's been established Erdogan supports the grey wolves

We have also established that the Gray Wolves he's talking about is not the Gray Wolves you're talking about.

[Aexodus]

Kyriakos was right, this is pointless.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

If you're pushed to defending yourself, war is already a reality. Sigh...

..Which is a reality that the Greeks don't want. Good job, if we keep going one step at a time like this maybe eventually you'll understand!

[ioannis76]

LOL, so the conclusion is that if you declare yourself willing to defend yourself if pushed, then you are "aggressive". I guess according to the Turkish dominant mentality, it is aggression to defend yourself against the "big conquerors".

We have also established that the Gray Wolves he's talking about is not the Gray Wolves you're talking about.

So there are two different Grey Wolf groups?

[Tureuki]

There isnt even a "Grey Wolf Group". There is a political stance called "Ulkuculuk"(Idealism) which has wolf sign as its semi official thingy. Its founded by Alparslan Türkeş in 1960s. This political stance has millions of followers in Turkey and is most definietly not a terrorist group. Just because some people who feel affliated to this political stance without holding any official rank in the political party has involved in terrorism doesnt means the entire party or political wing is terrorist.

I have told the same thing here before. There isnt a "Grey Wolf Terorist Organization". There were a few mafia figures whose personal political views were aligned with the Ulkuculuk.

[ioannis76]

We are talking about the Party ruled by Devlet Bahçeli, the MHP.

The MHP's view represents the Nine-Light doctrine, based on Turkish nationalism shaped by Islam

I think that's a no no for NATO. And perhaps it's not completely unrelated to this move:
https://ahvalnews.com/us-turkey/new-...ad-news-turkey



Turkey on a par with Iran? Interesting. We'll see if he follows through, though. I personally hope he does.

[Tureuki]

So you are insisting that MHP is a terrorist organization? :p

Why exactly its " no no" for Nato? Why should NATO be concerned with inner politics of country? MHP exists for an almost half a century. They even took part in governments. Whole Europe has far right parties, some either rule or close to rule but when its Turkey its nu nu nu.

Compared to AKP, MHP is barely Islamic anyway. Voter profile changes from region to region, in the area I live they are mostly secular people. Ataturk and his principles are also part of the party policy.

He deleted that tweet before he is appointed and its nothing new. The whole 15 july attempt was backed by CIA, its normal that he's pissed off and spills out of his mind after its failed(look at the date of tweet).

[ioannis76]

Why should NATO be concerned with inner politics of country?

Nationalism shaped by ISLAM is NATO-approved? I didn't know that.

Whole Europe has far right parties, some either rule or close to rule but when its Turkey its nu nu nu.

LOL, Turkey's Mustafa Kemal was a nationalist, and in fact he was the "insiration", or the "mentor" of both Hitler and Mussolini. It's the ISLAMIST bit of MHP and AKP that may be the problem. Hence the tweet that speaks of a totalitarian islamist dictatorship.

He deleted that tweet before he is appointed and its nothing new

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1GQ1HL

New U.S. Secretary of State Pompeo must respect Turkey, Ankara says

That's what the "Son of the Sergeant" (Cavusoglu) said.

The whole 15 july attempt was backed by CIA, its normal that he's pissed off and spills out of his mind after its failed(look at the date of tweet).

So, the guy who tried to create a coup in Turkey, has just been promoted to Foreign Minister of the USA. And that's no problem with Turkey. Nice.

[PointOfViewGun]

..Which is a reality that the Greeks don't want. Good job, if we keep going one step at a time like this maybe eventually you'll understand!

If you spin more perhaps you'll come out as Greeks being Martians... The president's full words make it quite clear that he was not talking about a defensive war. He was talking about more lands than modern Greece occupying today to be belonging to Greeks. In an anti-Turkish, pro-Greek attempt you're basically neutering what he said to mean something else.

LOL, so the conclusion is that if you declare yourself willing to defend yourself if pushed, then you are "aggressive". I guess according to the Turkish dominant mentality, it is aggression to defend yourself against the "big conquerors".

That's the conclusion you reach after spinning his words and ignoring some of it. No one from the Turkish side argued what you argue. It's quite nonsensical to try to pass it as Turkish dominant mentality.

So there are two different Grey Wolf groups?

We are talking about the Party ruled by Devlet Bahçeli, the MHP.
I think that's a no no for NATO. And perhaps it's not completely unrelated to this move:
https://ahvalnews.com/us-turkey/new-...ad-news-turkey
Turkey on a par with Iran? Interesting. We'll see if he follows through, though. I personally hope he does.

There are different groups that you guys are referring to, yes, but not necessarily two particular groups. I already explained this.

MHP is not equal to the Gray Wolves movement. Gray Wolves make a portion of their followers. MHP is basically your generic far right party.

The sign that they do is believed to be taken from Buddhists by Turks migrating from Asia to west. It became a political sign back in 1991 when Alparslan Türkeş was greeted by a large crowd in Baku as the Soviets was collapsing.

The sign generally means happiness, power, loyalty, etc. In Turkey though, its largely done without any meaning by MHP voters. It sort of became a branding symbol. Parties that secede from MHP, like the İYİ party, a central right party, is reluctant to use it as it's associated with MHP even though they have the same voter base.



On the other hand, what that Wikipedia page on Gray Wolves seems to be doing is to jumble up any violent act done by anyone that has a Turkic heritage or vaguely Turkic name under the Gray Wolves name, even though there is no organizational structure or leadership.

[Tureuki]

Do NATO has to "approve" the inner political structure of its members? Do other members has no political parties that is actively using Christianity in their political agenda?

"The tweet was later removed" from your link.

The guy who failed to create a coup, I mean if they are purposely bringing him to that position because of his stance againts Turkey(ridiculous reason but thats what you indicate) than he isnt exactly a good choice, because you know, he failed :p

Again, nothing is new. USA has been low key trying to undermine Turkey for years, you thought his predecessors were pro-Turkish? :p As long as Erdo doesnt goes anymore retard than this, their attempts will stay low key and they will never openly take a hostile stance againts Turkey. Must thank our ancestors for capturing this strategic piece of land :p